New Sym??

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gn2

Re: New Sym??

Post by gn2 »

SYMUK wrote:UPDATE

SYM Technical Dept have extended service intervals, but has not filtered officially down through the ranks and into print as yet....

Extended service intervals apply to 250cc and above - now 6,000km
Its a step in the right direction but still nowhere near long enough.
They need to be up around 10,000km as a minimum.

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Data
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Re: New Sym??

Post by Data »

Well that's really good info, thank's SYMUK. That puts them inline with many other bikes such as my Burgman 400. Now we are getting somewhere.
Probably not ugly enough for the 'Ugly Bunch'! :lol:

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spaceprobe
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Re: New Sym??

Post by spaceprobe »

Get it all sorted SYMUK before Data and I order our 600 ' :-)
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halfabusa
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Re: New Sym??

Post by halfabusa »

It's all good news, so i'm not complaining, but can someone explain me how a manufacturer would decide to extend the service periods waaay after the engine design phase? Surely, the service intervals were decided when the engine testing was completed.

The only way i see this happening is by changing the consumables, like the filter and oil that are going to be used in services but i doubt any manufacturer, including Sym would do such a major change this late in the marketing process.
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spaceprobe
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Re: New Sym??

Post by spaceprobe »

Is there not always some Lee way (come on Data). In the US oil is changed at 3 - 6000 miles. When I had the Vulcan the owners club which had many Americans could not believe that's in the UK Kawasaki recommended an annual oil change in Europe . My Audi oil change is 2 years or 24,000 miles but that is not offered to US owners, same car same engine!
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melpotter
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Re: New Sym??

Post by melpotter »

SYMUK wrote:UPDATE

SYM Technical Dept have extended service intervals, but has not filtered officially down through the ranks and into print as yet....

Extended service intervals apply to 250cc and above - now 6,000km

Watch this space - I have posted this indication previously - and reconfirmed this morning, please be patient and I will have official line shortly.

400cc and 600cc motors use paper filters.

Thanks
SYMUK
So will dealers realise that they need to stamp the service book differently?
I haven't lost my mind, it's backed up on tape somewhere.

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Data
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Re: New Sym??

Post by Data »

Many manufacturers have extended the service intervals for both cars and bikes over the years. It's quite normal and no extra development of the engine is normally required. Here in the Uk and much of 'Urop' we have a very mild ambient temperature/weather systems and this plays a big part in being able to extend the intervals. Many cars and some bikes sold here, are not serviced as much as those models sold in countries with more extremes of temperature etc. My own car sold here (VAG brand) has 10k mile service intervals, but the same model in Asia has 6k mile intervals. The engine units are identical with no mechanical changes to allow the longer service intervals in the Uk. Nothing needed. Hot, dry, dusty countries have to retain the shorter service intervals due to the higher dust content that gets drawn into the engines (some of which always finds it's way into the oil) and the much higher ambient temps that help break down the oil earlier. The overall humidity of the atmosphere in that country will also play a big apart if it's a very hot country as to how long the service intervals are. Very cold countries also have a much more rigorous service regime too, but these days, that's mostly related to the oil and filter changes. Regarding Sym, they have always stuck with the service intervals required for countries with severe operating conditions, which is where they have traditionally always sold most of their scooters and bikes. Now the 'you-a-peen' market is becoming a bigger place for them they need to adjuster service intervals inline with other brands as severe operating conditions don't really apply enmass over here. Sym is most likely going to adjust the intervals for each country being careful not to reduce them by much, if any, in countries with extremes of temperature etc. So if engines don't require the 'severe' over servicing because they are not encountering harsh conditions then it's all fine without the need for any modifications. In fact, it will only be to the engines advantage as changing the oil too often is not always good for an engine, especially in the first 10k miles.

When I first worked on a new engine design a couple of years ago our testing revealed it needed an oil change every 10,000 miles for best service life in our 'you-a-peen' climate. In hotter dustier climes we moved that to a recommended 6,000 miles inline with most other modern car engines used in those countries. Choice of oil too is important and that alone can make a huge difference to engine wear experienced, and the length between services. Use a motorcycle oil in a motorcycle/scooter too, it works better than car oil in modern engines due to the molecular structure being more resilient to high temp high rev environments. It doesn't matter what engine it is either, old or new. Use a M/C oil.
Probably not ugly enough for the 'Ugly Bunch'! :lol:

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Globs
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Re: New Sym??

Post by Globs »

Data wrote:Using a vacuum pump sucky thingy is probably why your oil is going so discoloured after so few miles, giving the impression it needs changing early. In fact, it's probably ok, even semi syn oil is probably fine at 3k even if it's really black. Colour is no indication of whether the oil is ok or not. It's just being tainted early (and probably going really black quite early) by the left over oil in the engine from not doing a full drain down by removing the sump plug. It makes a big difference if you do a full drain down by removing the sump plug with the oil warm and just let it drain and stand for 10 mins. And moving the bike from side to side before putting the plug back in gets quite a bit extra out too. That really is the only way to get virtually all the old stuff out. Don't forget that old stuff in the bottom of the engine often contains some of the nastiest stuff in it and it can harm your engine. Those pumpy sucky things are not meant to be used as a permanent solutions to do oil changes as it does let too much bad stuff build up in the engine. You'll find the new oil will stay cleaner longer by not using it. Your experience is typical of someone using the pumpy sucky thing.
The Joyride200 certainly requests oil every 1000 km, as I switch bikes quite a bit I'll have to wait until 10,000km now to check the GTS300's light ;) It came on at 9,000km but then it would, wouldn't it!

I do remove the sump plug now and again to check the filter on a drain, it's never caught anything TBH. I ran my bike in the motoman way so I've got a very good ring seal and need no oil top-ups between changes. I mainly use the dipstick-onto-a-rag test for oil colour.
The JR200 is GY6 based and therefore has quite a small oil capacity so I prefer to change it more often. The GTS has a much bigger sump and I'd be happier to leave that oil in longer, it's just ease of calculations if I do both bikes at the same intervals. I'm quite happy with the vacuum pump, it doesn't really matter if it leaves a little especially with synth. There was a long term car test in the US and they found with fully synth the amount of oil changed by replacing the oil filter regularly was enough to keep the oil analysis happy. I have litre markings on my (cylindrical) pump container and I get out the stated refill amount so any left must only be a few cc.

By using full synthetic BTW I get a lovely clean engine after 9000km:

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because unlike traditional oil it doesn't break down into varnish and lose viscosity. I can only use this as the clutch is external, normal bikes and the X10 would slip their clutches. A dealer put semi-synth in my JR200 and it may have been my imagination but it lost some of the 'pep', which was restored when I replaced it with fully synth again. Fully synth oil is orders of magnitude tougher than regular and semi-synth oil, without a clutch to bother why would I use inferior oils when I can have less wear, less dirt, better cold performance and better mpg? ;) If you are going to stretch an oil interval do it with fully synth. My Mobile1 0W40 has been in these two bikes for the last 7500km (not used for running in!) and they get hammered on the motorway every day and the engine still runs like a swiss watch.

As for mpg I get about 75-80 from the GTS300 and about 80-95 from the JR200, usually because the JR200 is a little slower so wind resistance (power into wind is a cubic law) is less. Touring France on the GTS300 at 90-100kmh (D and N roads) got me into the 90s I think, I was getting 320km per tank easily with spare left. The GTS300 motor is a fantastic thing, so relaxed and smooth. Also the variator is balanced - something the JR200's one doesn't appear to be, or at least not visibly.

The new GTS300 appears to rev higher, I had to go to 19g sliders on my GTS300 to stay safely out of the rev limit zone for relaxed cruising, I guess that's where it makes its extra power. Even with 19g sliders my GTS still pulls harder than a Burgman 400 up to 70mph ;D

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Data
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Re: New Sym??

Post by Data »

Globs, in that case don't worry about the colour of the oil. It's unimportant. As long as you are doing a full change with the sump plug removed now and then with oil warm, you don't have to worry about the colour. Are the photo's the 200?
Probably not ugly enough for the 'Ugly Bunch'! :lol:

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Re: New Sym??

Post by SYMUK »

To make it simple,
Sales Department ask R&D to design machine with long service intervals (Sell More Machines)
Costing department ask that manufacturing costs are reduced - (increase profitability)
Aftersales [Warranty] ask for shorter intervals, (reduce cost of warranty claims)
Sales Department ask for lower price - to sell more machines!

Statistics department make calculations across different markets and predict that extending service intervals by 1,000km will cost x, extra revenue from sales will be y, is the figure y worth the extra cost x?

The result of the above is that after a lot, and I mean a LOT of pushing in 'Urop', we have had a move in the right direction - warranty claims statisticians have agreed that the 'y' factor is worth persuing after the claim history to date!

To make life easy, maintenance schedules will be amended ONLY for models above 250cc and registered from 1st January 2014. Prior to this date, existing schedules will apply.

Thanks
SYMUK

My German car (not Audi) has service intervals of 12 months or 15,500 miles (25,000 km)

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