Tmax CVT Recall

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muddyfox
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Re: Tmax CVT Recall

Post by muddyfox »

Thanks for the update.
Muddyfox (Nottingham)
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EvilRacer329
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Re: Tmax CVT Recall

Post by EvilRacer329 »

MrGrumpy wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:37 pm Well, that's brilliant! And very quick as well - the hidden negotiations between my dealer and Yamaha went on for weeks, and it seemed to have been a process. So yours was completely out of warranty? Mine was only a year old when I reported the first symptoms, and was just out of warranty when it came back from its 4 month holiday in York, and was about a month out of warranty when they agreed to replace it.
I wonder why they don't replace all the 2017 models' CVT? Apart from the expense....
Congrats!
I know, I consider myself extremely lucky. I actually asked specifically why the dealer that performed the recall prior to my purchasing the bike didn't swap the CVT, and the response was that it's only something Yamaha authorise if a customer complains of the specific issue, rather than as a blanket item. It's possible that not every 2017 is affected, or more likely (as with the previous owner) that many people just trundle around at lower speeds and never push the extremes required to produce the problem. Personally, I'd consider leaving bikes on the market to damage the brand perception a significant public relations problem, but then the accountants are probably keen to avoid unnecessary expense.

In answer to your question, yes - the warranty expired in May, a couple of months before I bought the bike. It sounds like you've got to find the right dealer who's happy/competent to push the right buttons at Yamaha technical. I'll save the full celebrations for when I pick 'er up sometime next week and can verify that the problem is indeed resolved, but so far this has been a good week. :)

Nick

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Re: Tmax CVT Recall

Post by EvilRacer329 »

Well folks, the story draws to a close - with some useful facts for anyone else experiencing this issue. I have my scooter back, working better than ever, with noticeably improved acceleration, especially above 80mph...not that I would ever drive that fast on public roads. Where previously it would seem to max out at 6k RPM, now it climbs happily to 6.5 and beyond - all without slipping! I'm very pleased.

I can confirm that both halves of the secondary pulleys were replaced with different part numbers, as was one half of the primary pulley. I'm not going to post a full scan of the paperwork I was able to obtain because I don't want to get anyone in trouble, but if anyone has specific questions I'll do my best to answer them. Anyone else preparing themselves to wrestle with Yamaha should ask their dealer to refer to TSI2019/02.

So; it's a confirmed issue affecting specific model and frame numbers, and the design was changed in September 2018. What's interesting is that my dealer posited a theory as to why some bikes had been repaired as part of the final-drive recall and others hadn't. Yamaha quotes 1,1 hours for the work, which might be true if you've got the special tools already ordered in and are familiar with the procedure. It took my guy 3 hours, and apparently the way Yamaha reimburses dealers for warranty work like this means that many workshops try to avoid doing it unless it's absolutely necessary. My bike's original owner trundled around the suburbs and probably never noticed the problem, so perhaps his dealer decided to skip the work...

Nick

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Re: Tmax CVT Recall

Post by MrGrumpy »

EvilRacer329 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:32 am Anyone else preparing themselves to wrestle with Yamaha should ask their dealer to refer to TSI2019/02.

Yamaha quotes 1,1 hours for the work, which might be true if you've got the special tools already ordered in and are familiar with the procedure. It took my guy 3 hours, and apparently the way Yamaha reimburses dealers for warranty work like this means that many workshops try to avoid doing it unless it's absolutely necessary.
And what exactly is TSI2019/02? Is it a service bulletin or something?
I know my dealer had discussions with Yamaha before I brought it in for the Drive Belt recall and was told that mine definitely wasn't covered by the recall. I'm sure they'd have done the replacement if Yamaha had said they should. Of course with time it seems that recall should have been a bit wider! The Yamaha Tech guy referred to various 'parameters' which indicate that that the whole thing isn't as cut & dried as you would expect.

Don't think it took my dealer 3 hours to do the CVT. Can't remember the exact time, but I was there for under three hours and they also had to replace a mirror and took it for a test ride in that time.

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EvilRacer329
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Re: Tmax CVT Recall

Post by EvilRacer329 »

That's correct - an internal technical bulletin. What year was your T-Max again - I remember you saying it was still in warranty, and according to the documentation machines built after September 2018 were known to be suspect. It's possible that the arguments you had to deal with were, as you say, them considering if the recall should have been expanded. By all accounts they reverted to the pulley design from the previous model T-Max. I guess they tried to save some money on a different design and it backfired...

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Re: Tmax CVT Recall

Post by MrGrumpy »

Mine was new in June 2017 - so was in warranty when I first complained, but out of warranty when it came back from its 4 month holiday in York.

Interesting that you say that machines built AFTER September 18 were suspect. When Yamaha created the mk6, they definitely seemed to have pushed the envelope a bit by making things lighter and sportier eg the rear Drive Belt that was half the width of the one on the mk4 and 5, and they did say that they'd 'optimised' the CVT on the mk6. So I assumed that Yamaha had been a bit adventurous with the early mk6s and got their fingers burnt by making things a bit lightweight - but it seems that they took a step a little way into the production process. It seems the Tmax is always evolving, even between upgrades!

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EvilRacer329
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Re: Tmax CVT Recall

Post by EvilRacer329 »

Ah, sorry - I misspoke: machines built before September 2018 were suspect. Sorry! :D

But yeah, it sounds like they pushed the envelope a teensy bit too far on some components and didn't find out that they'd pushed them too far until after customers started riding them. I still think that the best thing to do would have been to formally let people know to bring their machines back in for remedial work, and the way you had to fight to get yours sorted while still under warranty is pretty disgraceful. Still, everyone makes mistakes, and Yamaha certainly seemed keen to resolve my issue a full six months after my warranty had expired, even though I had just broken the full dealer service history by doing the 6K service myself.

I'd be very interested to see what an early mk6 final drive belt looked like - was it really fully half the width of the post-recall belt?!

Incidentally, I kept my CVT belt after the repair (I paid to have a new one put on while everything was in bits) and it honestly looks brand new, even at 7k miles. If someone can tell me what the stock thickness is supposed to be I can measure mine and see how much it's worn, but at this point I'd be tempted to pop it back on at the next change interval and put another 10k miles on it. At £130 a pop, those CVT belts aren't cheap!

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Re: Tmax CVT Recall

Post by MrGrumpy »

EvilRacer329 wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:55 am A

I'd be very interested to see what an early mk6 final drive belt looked like - was it really fully half the width of the post-recall belt?!

Incidentally, I kept my CVT belt after the repair (I paid to have a new one put on while everything was in bits) and it honestly looks brand new, even at 7k miles. If someone can tell me what the stock thickness is supposed to be I can measure mine and see how much it's worn, but at this point I'd be tempted to pop it back on at the next change interval and put another 10k miles on it. At £130 a pop, those CVT belts aren't cheap!

Nick
No - the final drive belt on the mk6 (pre & post recall) was half the width of the belt used on the mk4 and mk5 versions. The pre & post recall mk6 belts look identical superficially.

Yes, CVT belts always look like they are brand new - even when they are over 12k miles! Its annoying to have to throw something away that looks perfect! Haven't got the actual width figures, but they don't lose much over 12k miles - only a couple of mm - but that's enough to put them below the stated minimum. They will go on somewhat longer - they rarely break, but performance, especially top speed, is affected when heavily worn.

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Re: Tmax CVT Recall

Post by EvilRacer329 »

Interesting...I'd love to see some photos of the old belts! Before that I gather the older T-Max's used oil-bath enclosed chain drive, which aside from the need to change another box of oil and the weight penalty seems like the best solution.

What *are* the official tolerances on belt widths? How wide are the when new? If this 7k one is more than half worn I'll chuck it away and not bother...

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Re: Tmax CVT Recall

Post by MrGrumpy »

EvilRacer329 wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:06 am Before that I gather the older T-Max's used oil-bath enclosed chain drive, which aside from the need to change another box of oil and the weight penalty seems like the best solution.

Yes, it was the perfect solution. No fuss, little maintenance, and I couldn't detect any improvement in feel that Yamaha claimed from the belt drive! Example of excellent progress backwardsl

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