New Sym??

[MrGrumpy]

But Even Ducati quote incredibly long service intervals these days - 12k or even 15K miles. If an exotic like Ducati can have long service intervals, I'm sure a basic but well designed scooter can

[Globs]

Globs, in that case don't worry about the colour of the oil. It's unimportant. As long as you are doing a full change with the sump plug removed now and then with oil warm, you don't have to worry about the colour. Are the photo's the 200?

No that's the head of the GTS300. The 200 engine only has small valve access hatches top and bottom.
I was impressed by the casting quality and design - very light and stiff. SYM definitely make a very high quality product - top range stuff.

Shame my local dealer packed up - he did SYMs and all the issues with parts etc was thrown to them . My faith in SYMs is really down to build quality and the trust that they'll never go wrong. It would be nice if they had the workshop manuals online too, it's not as if the competition won't have them anyway and would alleviate the supports issues somewhat. I still haven't got an uptodate Joyride manual, despite the fact that was a condition of sale from the place in Rugby where I bought it. As they added PDI etc on top of the price too I didn't go back, but bought the GTS from Greater London Motorcycles who were fantastic, the sticker price was the one I paid and included PDI, delivery and even a free SYM lock and chain.

I was going to check the new GTS out at MC Live but given they won't be there I'll be looking carefully at the Piaggio X10 boot space to see if that makes it back onto my 'most wanted' list

[Globs]

But Even Ducati quote incredibly long service intervals these days - 12k or even 15K miles. If an exotic like Ducati can have long service intervals, I'm sure a basic but well designed scooter can

I'm not sure the GY6 sump capacity is big enough - the 200cc down will always need a short oil change interval.
The GTS has a much bigger sump for nearly the same usage so it will last longer.

The really nice thing about long intervals is one of cost, because between dealer services I am always free to change the oils. Service costs are a big issue - lowering the effective MPG of the Joyride from 80mpg to 40mpg, in fact after not so many miles a Piaggio X10 works out cheaper due to that. Educating SYM dealers on a simple oil-change £25 service would help because over £100 every 3000km just isn't cutting it.

Long service intervals and small sumps are a fad - quite a few cars had issues with the oil turning to jelly due to this - even Toyotas in the US. That's an engine killer but with planned obsolescence stretching the intervals you do get added wear - plus remember we only have a strainer. Even SYM want you to keep the PDI oil in there for 300km too - in both my bikes that was flushed straight out on delivery, straight mineral oil went in and lasted the full 20-30 miles of running in distance and was changed out simply to get those ring grinding/sealing particles out from the oil

On the joyride now I tend to cruise at 110km indicated which is one mark down from 8,000rpm - 7667rpm I think - it's nice and smooth at that speed.
On the GTS300 I tend to cruise at around 7000rpm which IIRC is about the same speed.

[Data]

That engine looks well made in your photo. Lock nut and adjusters too I see.

I got the reports on some oil issues from the States, but to be honest it's not a concern as many of the reports I read from several manufacturers indicated the problems were often related to other factors and not due to long service intervals in isolation. Although some petrol engines did suffer issues of that nature, it was mainly due to problems other than long service intervals, but in the early days they did become associated with causing the issues. Indeed, there was some connection but it was in fact much more limited that many thought. I don't specifically know about the Toyota problems but have heard of those issues. Other problems that caused the oil to become thickened was the use of incorrect oil by dealers who didn't always understand the importance of using long life oil. In addition, many of the problems were on diesel engines due to the early dpf ecu programing that was less than optimum. This caused too much fuel to be injected into the cylinders at bdc to keep the exhaust gases alive and thus raise the dpf temperature to burn it clean. The problem was some of the neat fuel was bypassing the rings and jellifying the oil overtime as it built up in the oil, first showing as oil dilution, then becoming somewhat thickened in some of the USA extremes of temperature due to excess wax and other chemical reactions. Diesel fuel, unlike petrol does not evaporate from the oil, just clogs it up if the conditions are right. But anyway you prolly know all that.

Funnily enough, when we used fully syn oil in our bench engines and ran them way beyond time for an oil change, we didn't experience any additional wear over and above the use of normal oil change intervals. Oil was completely black with viscosity rising, but the nature of the fully syn oil still kept on protecting. No additional wear took place on bearings, journals or pistons and rings. Cylinders still showed normal wear as expected. And these were engines going 8-10k miles beyond a normal oil change and being run by computer to undergo a very rigorous trial under load. Before starting the benching we blueprinted 3 engines and ran them all with different oils. The one with mineral oil in suffered early cam failure at just 55k miles. The semi syn oil in the second engine protected much better but the same cam failure show up 20k later. Using fully syn oil with a high pressure agent in cured the problem. That engine ran for an extrapolated 150,000 miles with fully syn in and destroyed itself when we did the destruction test at full power and no more oil changes after an actual 18,000 miles. Interestingly apart from the piston and rings, the rest of the engine was in perfect nick. All wear within normal parameters. We therefore know the engine in real terms will cover huge mileages in real life with no problems if fully syn is used and when it is fitted in a car an extended service interval is going to be ok. The engine is still undergoing trials in europe on that one but I'm not involved in any of that. My job is done. One thing we did find. Motorcycle fully syn oil works much better than car fully syn. Interesting!

[gn2]

I used to have a Toyota Carina E 1.6 petrol, it once went thirty one thousand miles between oil changes and regularly went twenty thousand miles between changes.
I sold it with over two hundred thousand miles on the clock and it was still going strong two years after that.

[SYMUK]

Scooters by nature of the mode of transport generally do many shorter journeys than a car. Engines often do not come up to full working temperatures and run for a sufficient period to evaporate water condensation within the engine. This can then emulsify and no longer work as oil should.

It is well known that a sales reps car sitting on a motorway for long periods and covering enormous mileages have engines in better condition than those covering a third of the mileage but more short journeys!

Service intervals are not only determined by oil changes, however a well looked after frequently serviced unit will last longer under normal use. It is also known that a larger oil capacity reduces service intervals - the oil is not working as hard, the workload shared across more molecules of oil!

Unfortunately statistical data indicates that lower than 250cc units require a more stringent service routine - generally speaking it is the lower capacity units that fail more often through negligence - Maxi Scooters generally speaking are better looked after by their owners..... [Data for EU that is!]

Servicing is not only about extending the longevity and reliability (and lower warranty claims?) but is also a vital safety check - a crucial point not yet covered!

Thanks
SYMUK

[Globs]

That engine looks well made in your photo. Lock nut and adjusters too I see.

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Funnily enough, when we used fully syn oil in our bench engines and ran them way beyond time for an oil change, we didn't experience any additional wear over and above the use of normal oil change intervals. Oil was completely black with viscosity rising, but the nature of the fully syn oil still kept on protecting. No additional wear took place on bearings, journals or pistons and rings. Cylinders still showed normal wear as expected.

:

One thing we did find. Motorcycle fully syn oil works much better than car fully syn. Interesting!

Yes the SYM quality is top notch, especially the bigger machines, I'm not convinced the Japanese can realistically compete with SYM, Kymco and Daelim.

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The gradual rise in viscosity is what I like about fully synth oil and is the reason it's more slippery too - it's 100% oil. People don't realise that their 10w40 oil is actually SAE10 oil with a bunch of plastic thickener added, that gets mashed up by the rings into varnish. Leaving regular 10w40 oil in too long ends up with the varnish spread around the engine surfaces and the actual oil, SAE10, flowing round like water, it's viscosity gone from 40 right down to a watery 10.

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I'm not sure I can bother with the expense of motorcycle synth over car stuff TBH, especially as I don't need the wet-clutch additive pack. However diesel rated fully synth is supposed to be better for a scooter too due to the additive pack dealing with the dirt accumulation better. I think once into any synth we are making an engine live far longer than the rest of the scooter

[Data]

Globs, use Smith & Allan (biggest oil supplier in the UK) on T'internet and get your oil, plus it's free delivery. Fully syn Shell Advanced Motorcycle oil 10-40 is often less than semi syn and usually cheaper than fully syn Mobile car oil which is only actually giving you around the same protection as semi motorcycle oil because it's a car oil. different offers apply at different time like all these things but it makes fully syn motorcycle oil a much cheaper option and better for most bikes. Most cars don't actually need the same protection that your bike engine needs. Yeah...we did the oil tests and had the oil scientists chatting to us about our engine project, it opened my eyes!

[Data]

Servicing is not only about extending the longevity and reliability (and lower warranty claims?) but is also a vital safety check - a crucial point not yet covered!

Thanks
SYMUK

Yes important point, but taken as a given I think by most on here. Great news though about the increased service intervals that are coming. Can't wait to test the 600i. Counting my pennies now!

[gn2]

Yes the SYM quality is top notch, especially the bigger machines, I'm not convinced the Japanese can realistically compete with SYM, Kymco and Daelim.

That's a cracker! (as Frank Carson used to say)