T-max DX gone replaced by Honda 750 X-Adv

[MrGrumpy]

Oh such progress...I now have to be careful in case I upset my scooter!

[roadster]

In the car world Toyota have shown that a well implemented electronic CVT is unbeatable and I say this from direct ownership experience of the RAV4 versus the most recent Hyundai Tucson dual clutch automatic. Its not so simple in the bike/scooter area because Honda are the only ones with enough resources to develop sophisticated levels of control and rider options. Its a pity that there is now no incentive to develop transmissions for the IC engine so I expect we have seen the last of innovation in this area.

[MrGrumpy]

Its odd that DCT doesn't seem to work very well on cars - or is just that VW drivers have endless problems with theirs?? There again, the Nissan CVT seems to have an evil reputation as well (I've no direct experience of either).

[velocipede6295]

My Ford C Max DCT works very well, and I have had no trouble with it ( 85K now). I have almost got used to the X ADV DCT after 1000 miles riding, but the change down to 1st from 2nd, which is harsh, and sometimes catches me out in traffic, still causes me a bit of a problem. I sometimes go into manual in heavy stop start traffic where it will stay in 1st after setting off from stopped. However it will still change down to first ( sometimes harshly, when slowing down in manual, if you go slow enough, ie 11mph.
The CVT on my Forza feels very smooth after the X ADV, but the bigger bike is much better over bumpy roads and long distances.

[Data]

Its odd that DCT doesn't seem to work very well on cars - or is just that VW drivers have endless problems with theirs?? There again, the Nissan CVT seems to have an evil reputation as well (I've no direct experience of either).

There are two automatic gearbox types that in the car world smart money avoids. Firstly the ECVT gearboxes, and secondly the DCT/DSG (both the same but different names). I speak as both a tech & as someone who has personal experience of many auto trannies. I understand some individuals may have had different experiences, but the trends are as I mention below.

Toyota, Ford, Nissan, Honda all have made terrible CVT transmissions. The Toyota Prius was a good example of how not to make a CVT box. The first 4 incarnations of the Prius had exploding belt breaking transmissions. The fifth generation gearbox is a bit better. Honda seemed unable to make the belts in their CVT cars last past an average 40k miles. Ford, we'll just forget about their attempt at CVT. Nissan had all the usual issues but almost every other manufacturer has had big problems with CVT. Although it is true to say some manufacturers are starting to get to grips with the issues. But many are switching to other types of gearbox technology.

DCT/DSG auto boxes seemed like a good idea. VW pioneered them but these quickly developed faults with slipping clutches, failing mechatronics units (the unit that changes gears & exerts hydraulic pressure on the clutch discs to gain friction against the flywheel). I bought two brand new VW dry clutch DSG cars. Both gearboxes failed within months of purchase. There was no fix for the problems just replacements of more of the same. In the end, I like many others sort compensation from VW. This resulted in me fully rejecting one of the cars & gaining full compensation. They tried to pull the wool over my eyes but didn't realise I was a tech. This soon changed their minds on how to treat me. My friends who also bought VW engined auto cars complained of the same major faults. Hyundai, Kia, Ford & others all have issues with the DSG type of gearbox. Although some more than others & mainly with the dry clutch variants. Ford is currently being sued in a huge class action over its DSG power shift gearbox. It was totally unreliable leaving many stranded by the roadside.

After years of buying German cars I decided to step away & buy a Citroen. It has a fully auto box using the latest torque converter technology. Many manufacturers are going back to the good old stuff but only after fully modernising it. My Citroen gearbox is smaller, lighter than CVT & DSG & totally bullet proof. It's cheaper & less complicated than DSG or CVT & just lasts & lasts. It's very smooth to drive & unlike the very old torque convert gearboxes locks up each gear straight away so they are very efficient & comparable to manual cars for fuel economy. In four & a half years of driving my Citroen I've not had a single issue with the car & the gearbox remains silky smooth & responsive.

[MrGrumpy]

After years of buying German cars I decided to step away & buy a Citroen. It has a fully auto box using the latest torque converter technology. Many manufacturers are going back to the good old stuff but only after fully modernising it. My Citroen gearbox is smaller, lighter than CVT & DSG & totally bullet proof. It's cheaper & less complicated than DSG or CVT & just lasts & lasts. It's very smooth to drive & unlike the very old torque convert gearboxes locks up each gear straight away so they are very efficient & comparable to manual cars for fuel economy. In four & a half years of driving my Citroen I've not had a single issue with the car & the gearbox remains silky smooth & responsive.

As I understand it, Citroen/Peugeot/Vauxhall (same group!) auto boxes are made by a Japanese company who's name I forget, so maybe its not surprising that they are reliable! I think at least some versions have 8 speeds. I was wondering about whether gears on torque converter transmissions are locked to minimise the inefficiency - good to read that they do. Torque converter transmissions were always reliable and could be fun, but could be wasteful.

Returning to Scoots, given the hassles with car DCTs you mention, its interesting that Honda's PTW DCT seems very reliable (AFAIK).

[Data]

Yes Grumpy, the torque converter type is proven to be the ultimate reliable type. Yes these modern Torque Converter boxes are smaller, lighter & very very efficient. Mercedes, BMW, Nissan, Citroen, Peugeot, Vauxhall & many more are now tending to use this type in place of CVT/DSG/DCT. The only issue you are likely to encounter (after high mileages) on torque converter boxes is a leaky solenoid hydraulic valve. These are easily replaced. However, when a CVT belt breaks on a CVT gearbox (eventually they all do!) it usually always means a new gearbox. DSG is also ultra expensive to replace & highly complex.

Hondas DCT gearbox is a sealed unit. If it goes wrong it's always a return to factory job. Honda doesn't want dealers to even try to strip them as they are very very complex. I've heard of a few going wrong over the years but overall they seem quite reliable. Understand that if one fails outside warranty, the replacement cost is often more than the bike is worth by some way.

The PSA Group uses a torque converter gearbox developed by Citroen & Nissan jointly along with the Japanese firm Aisin. Aisin are the world leaders in auto box design & development. They came up with the EAT6 & EAT8 boxes used in all Peugeot's/Citroen's (& some Vauxhall's I think). Niether me or any of my friends who also bought Citroen & Peugeot cars with the EAT6 & 8 have experienced any issues at all with them. One guy I know has put 80,000 miles on his in 5 yrs & the box remains smooth & quiet. Quite different to our experiences with dry clutch DCT/DSG types which struggled to achieve 10k mike's without major issues.

IMPORTANT: Manual transmissions for cars are being banned from 2028.

[knight2]

It was only a couple of monthe ago that I found out that they were fitting CVT boxes to cars again and I watched a couple of videos of them being stripped down and they looked very complex. At least he old DAF CVT was simple
They started to bring in AMT (automatic manual transmissons) on HGV's a few years ago, it was met with more than a little derision by most drivers myself included. Then I was given
one to drive on a daily basis, Odd at first, but after the first week I was a convert, they are brilliant and totally reliable. But of course they aren't auto boxes they are manual controlled by a computer. I don't know if they fit anything similar to cars.
Clutches lasted way longer, truck clutches are expensive and easily destroyed by careless drivers. They are more ecomonical as well which is a big plus on a truck.
A bit of an after thought but I get a similar feeling riding the burgman after years on a manual bike. You could drive the truck in manual as well, but you didn't have to change modes just flick the stalk on the steering wheel.

[MrGrumpy]

You could get an 'automated manual' gearbox on some Suzuki cars, which I understand was painfully slow in operation, and some high end cars have a Tiptronic system that can work in auto (I think) or semi-auto mode (via paddles on the steering wheel) . We mustn't forget the NSU RO80 of the 60s that had a semi-auto transmission (gear lever but auto clutch)!

As for heavy vehicles, I remember reading in the 1980s about a Scania system for Buses that suggested a gear for the driver, who could then change to that gear by pressing the clutch pedal, or manually pick another one. Took a bit of getting used to, apparently!

[knight2]

I drove a truck with a type of pre select box once I think it was a Mercedes but I'm not sure only had it for a couple of shifts. From what I remember it was okay but I couldn't see the point. One thing about working for agencies you never knew what sort of truck you were going to get and the gearboxes varied a lot, 4by4, 4over4, preselect, auto, semis and one where 3rd became 1st when you used the range change, some had splitters some didn't. Being on the agency most of the trucks you got had seen better days which didn't help much.
All added to the fun.