New 650 Build Quality.

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Hi Mac, yep after a lifetime of motorcycles I'm just so taken with this scootering malarky and the Burgmans that I've got to have the 650 too, that is if I like the new one and the way it rides. No, I'm not super rich or anything, just scooter daft! Scooters are just so much fun and so practical in a way to me, that motorcycles just don't seem capable of. I intend to keep my 400 as I love it to bits. But I've ridden the 650 several times in it's current form and covered some serious miles on a ride out. They indeed do take some beating at the scooter upper end. I think of it as a 400 with extra power. The only thing that I don't like quite so much about the current 650 model is the lardy styling. The new one fixes that, plus a few other things too and should be more economical by far from what I'm reading. To me it even looks much more like the 400z abs than the current 650. I too seek more leisure time on two wheels as luckily for me I now only work part time which is brilliant. For me having a choice of which one to ride will indeed be a luxury, but fun too. That will be what it's all about for me.

[macamxthe1st]

Sounds spookily similar to my own situation and view. Ta!.

Geoff.

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Will you do your own maintenance Mac? I intend to all of mine on not just my 400 but on any 650 too (if I end up liking it enough to buy one). It's isn't complicated but it is time consuming if you follow the service schedule by the book, something I always do. Funny, but after being in the trade for much of my life I don't touch my car mechanically these days. I haven't even be teching on the bikes either. But now I have the Burgman, I'm actually enjoying fiddling with it myself and can't wait to do the major service on it (once out of warranty). Can't explain it but I'm actually interested again! In all honesty, the Burgman 400 is more than enough of a bike in everyway, but there is still something about the 650 that appeals and it isn't in my case necessarily the extra power. I may even plan an interplanetary trip soon but on the 400!!

[macamxthe1st]

I to have an engineering background but as I have an excellent dealer with two top notch mech's who really does "look after me" I will be leaving it to them. I am really struggling at the moment as I keep fancying another Bonneville but the 650 is a much better bet for what I want to do but I have this nagging worry about the very, very expensive transmission failures that some of the 650,s have suffered. Following 50 years of serial bike changing I want what I buy this time to be something that I am happy to keep for a few years. So depending on mood and alcohol intake I swing from one to another. Last year I owned both a Bonneville and a 2010 400 Burgman and whilst I loved the Bonneville the Burgman got by far the most use.

Geoff.

[bornagainbiker]

but the 650 is a much better bet for what I want to do but I have this nagging worry about the very, very expensive transmission failures that some of the 650,s have suffered. Geoff.

Geoff, do not worry too much, I see you are on the american Burgman forums where most of these failures are reported. But look at their mileage when they fail, 40k+, how were they previously treated etc. You will always read about the worst of any item, but hear very little about the 650s still running without having an issue. Plus these are new generation 650 scooters, similar in general design but internally Suzuki must have improved on their 'failures' etc. I have full confidence in my L1 650 and at less than 5000 miles a year I'm not too worried and will probably have a part exchanged it anyway for a newer model or different manufacturer. You could always take out an extended warranty policy. I have both the 650 and now recently a high mileage K8 400 for a winter project and to 'learn' the servicing which looks fairly simple on the 400. My 650 is due its 1st year 4000 service, so I'll get that done by my dealer but next September I'm doing it myself. The 650 has the instant power due to the final gear with no 'normal' CVT lag and goes into corners beautifully and the Power button is superb. The 400 actually suits my small 5' 6" height, 29" leg with my feet flat on the floor. The power is not instant due to the belt CVT but could need new sliders etc but that's me comparing it to the 650 and not another similar 400. It easily gets to 70 and cruises at 80 but there is a small vibration thru the bars and seat probably due to the single cylinder, where the twin 650 is very smooth. I hear that in 2014 the new 400 may have a twin cylinder similar to the Honda SW-T400. My MPGs are below and love the 400s economy even at high speed, and if the new 650 is to get 15% better consumption then 66 mpg average should be achievable.

[macamxthe1st]

Interesting, same dimensions, 5'6'' and 29''. The 400 was a perfect fit but the 650 extra weight/height not an issue (I used to ride Pan's, RT's etc). I fully agree with you regarding the development of the transmission but my confidence in Suzuki was badly knocked by a grabbing clutch on a ZALO that I bought. Guess I am just being a bit "Twitchy".

Geoff.

[poldark]

Geoff

Maybe you've seen this on BUSA already, but majority of any failures are older model 650s I don't believe you should have any concern on a new(ish) bike.

http://burgmanusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=58892

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Hi again Mac, yes, I too have been very concerned about transmission problems. But as Poldark says I don't think we need worry too much about the belt/transmission now. Earlier spline problems are fixed as you know. As I see it, it's just that the drive belt on the 650 wears out and there is no Suzuki recommendation for a maintenance/replacement mileage. They call it a 'lifetime belt' but there is no such thing as any engineer will tell you. Ford have found that out with their lifetime cambelts too. They have just as many failures as other manufacturers when the belt is not replaced as part of a regular maintenance routine. As such, as more and more 650 belts wear out we hear of more owners being left by the roadside. These numbers are increasing on both sides of the pond too as the bikes get older and cover more miles. It's inevitable. It's not a fault, just normal wear and tear. It can be addressed by replacing the belt at a specific mileage. I'd like to have a go at that on someones bike to see just how difficult it is. Also, how the bike is treated during running in is critical it seems to how long the belt can last. The drive belt has to settle in and if it's not allowed to bed in the belt suffers extreme wear and fails early. There are still many many cases of the belts failing at between 35-45k miles, much too early. On the other hand, it seems owners who run the bike in properly and don't over tax the transmission too early cover 60k miles or more trouble free. This running in thing is one of the most important things to note. In the late 80's Ford found this out with the CVT transmission fitted to the Fiesta. Running in properly was critical to belt life. I feel certain that's all it is.

[macamxthe1st]

It is that critical balance between load but not overload and as we all know too little load is probably worse than overload.

I will be very interested to hear what you think following your NEC visit as I don't think that I am going to be able to make it.

Now back in my corner, Burgman, Bonneville, Burman

Geoff.

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I was talking to one of the Americans who had his belt snap at 35k miles on his 650. He said he had used the Motoman running in method. That's definitely one method to avoid with the Burgman 650 in my book and probably for most engines actually if the bike is for road use and long term ownership. Owners convince themselves it's a better method but in my experience it's all a bit dubious and can be catastrophic for the engine internals on road bikes, especially long term. People often don't realise or simply forget it was a method developed for the racing industry where engine internals are setup quite differently with bigger piston and ring gaps and the valves set up differently etc etc. Race engines rattle like crazy at idle if you have a listen due to these essential bigger gaps. This enables them to deal with the extra heat and pressures encountered during the Motoman method of running in and of course the race itself. The engines only have to last a few races too before a strip down. I used to spanner for a couple of chaps who clubman raced minis' in the 80's. The engines were hybrids like most were in those days with Norton Commando pistons and conrods to give a swept volume of 1500cc. They went ok too. But running in was a brutal affair and something most owners would definitely not do to their engines if they actually saw us doing it. Interestingly, some folk I know have said they are using that method to run their new bikes in. But I've yet to see anyone actually do it correctly with most just being slightly hard on the motor in a way that is fine for the engine. Most just don't grasp the concept, if they did they wouldn't even consider it. The whole process should be over in about 1hour and 15mins of throttle time for most engines but that excludes engine cooling time and oil/filter change inbetween. Yet one or two I know are taking weeks to use this fast 'Motoman' method! I must confess to chuckling just a bit about that. Interestingly my ex Suzi dealer had their ex-demo 650 model, sold to a customer of course, break it's belt at 38k miles. The running in method for that was...you guessed it... the Motoman method.

Mac, I'm intending to pin down the Suzi rep for a discussion, for what it's worth, on this transmission issue just to see what he thinks. I'll be looking over the new bike in great detail too and I'll take some pics if appropriate. I want to find out exactly what changes Suzi has made to the new model over the current one. I don't suppose there will be any new 650's to ride on the day but I will take a look just in case. The belt wear issue is not a deal breaker for me. Depending on what I find out, and if I buy one I'll definitely consider replacing the belt and other tranny parts at a suitable mileage before any issues arise. It's not unusual for me to go anywhere up to 100,000 miles on a bike before trading it. I fully expect my 400 to go close to those miles before I get rid. I've already covered twice the mileage on my 400z abs this year that I would cover on my Vstrom 1000. It's just so much fun to ride! Anyhoo...going on a bit and off topic too I suspect. Bye for now.