They're dangerous!

[Ministerofsillywalks]

Just had a tirade from my brother about 'motorbikes are dangerous' ('motorbikes.scooters. Same thing') and how I should get rid of mine and get a car Quoting his favourite story about a mate of his in the 1970s who was doing 60 in a 30 limit when he hit a car coming the other way, also doing 60 in a 30 limit. He survived but lost an arm. 'Cars these days have airbags and crumple zones.' Erm... not in the 1970s they didn't. So he wouldn't have fared any better if he had been in a car. Cars are dangerous? If you drive with your brain disconnected yes.

I have had this before. 'My mate/ brother/whatever was killed on a bike.' The fact that he was doing 90 in a 40 limit is of course totally irrelevant. This attitude seems to be unique to this country. Over in mainland Europe powered 2-wheelers are seen as a cheap practical way of getting around. Here they are seen as dangerous, cold and wet, no luggage space etc etc. People only see the downsides. And if they were dangerous in countries like Taiwan (or Italy) the hospitals and mortuaries would be overwhelmed. I, and most members of this forum have survived many many years of riding and are still here to tell the tale. Why? Because we ride sensibly and not like a lunatic. It isn't bikes that are dangerous, it's the riders. Unfortunately the people of this country don't see it that way. Okay so we don't have airbags and crumple zones, but there are such things as being seen, riding defensively and at a sensible speed. Do car drivers drive like lunatics knowing their air bags and crumple zones will protect them? Of course not.

Your thoughts please?

[MrGrumpy]

Well yes, but on the other hand, we all make mistakes and when we do they hurt more on a bike! Like my rather too close encounter with a tractor last year, when I completely put myself in the wrong place and went into the side of a trailer being pulled by a tractor as it turned right. If I'd been in the car, I'd have probably heavily damaged the car, but injuries to me would have been very minor, but on the Tmax I had a week's holiday in intensive care!

[Ministerofsillywalks]

Well yes, but on the other hand, we all make mistakes and when we do they hurt more on a bike! Like my rather too close encounter with a tractor last year, when I completely put myself in the wrong place and went into the side of a trailer being pulled by a tractor as it turned right. If I'd been in the car, I'd have probably heavily damaged the car, but injuries to me would have been very minor, but on the Tmax I had a week's holiday in intensive care!

The trouble is the 'motorbikes are dangerous' brigade emphasise things like that and disregard the thousands of miles of crash-free riding before and after. As I say, they only see the downsides.

[Andym]

A lot of such people are just about a feeling of power, knowing better. If it isn't "bikes are dangerous" it'll be "I only eat sour dough and drink de-cafe" or "You should have left at junction 6 and taken the ring road....".

I want to live not exist.

Andy

[velocipede6295]

Well yes, but on the other hand, we all make mistakes and when we do they hurt more on a bike! Like my rather too close encounter with a tractor last year, when I completely put myself in the wrong place and went into the side of a trailer being pulled by a tractor as it turned right. If I'd been in the car, I'd have probably heavily damaged the car, but injuries to me would have been very minor, but on the Tmax I had a week's holiday in intensive care!

I read about your accident MrGrumpy last year, and I hope you have recovered and are doing OK now. I have had a few scary encounters with tractors on narrow country roads ( which I frequent a lot on my scooter (s) ) they are quite often are driven too fast by young lads, who don't slow down when coming towards, me and they never give way. I am on high alert when I spot one and always try to get out of their way, pull over . I have to be careful when pulling over and stopping, as the road can drop away at the side and there is nothing to put you left foot on when you stop!

[Ministerofsillywalks]

A lot of such people are just about a feeling of power, knowing better. If it isn't "bikes are dangerous" it'll be "I only eat sour dough and drink de-cafe" or "You should have left at junction 6 and taken the ring road....".

I want to live not exist.

Andy

I think it's more than that. Only eating sourdough bread and only drinking decaff coffee is being self-rightous and feeling superior. 'Bikes are dangerous' is about perception. A widespread perception. 'I'm in my car surrounded by metal with crumple zones and airbags. Motorbikes have none of that and are too fast. Therefore they're dangerous.' A view backed up with 'X was doing 60 round a blind bend, crashed and died.' And being ignorant of the fact that most riders (usually on scooters) don't ride like that. Emphasising the downsides. It's to do with being British. Being set in their ways and closed to anything not considered 'normal.'

[Orcadian]

We are certainly more vulnerable than those in their metal cages but cars and bikes (and scooters) are dangerous - but only in the wrong hands. The vast majority of us take our riding seriously and do everything possible to lower the chances of being involved in an 'incident'. Many of the younger drivers have not had the undoubted pleasure of being on two wheels and pitting themselves against nature and whatever it might throw at them - their loss, I'm afraid. This also means that they don't understand why we might be travelling slower than they want to because they haven't seen the gravel or cow shit on the next bend.
An old friend of mine used to say that airbags in cars should be removed and a large spike mounted in the centre of the steering wheel! He also felt that heaters should be banned, then drivers might become aware of the fact that there is ice about.

There have been many attempts by successive Governments to make it almost impossible to take to the road on 2 wheels and their very skewed figures always point to the fact that 2 wheels are not as safe as 4, usually neglecting the reasons for the accidents they are citing.

Ian

[Ministerofsillywalks]

Certainly us riders are more aware of potential hazards. Because we have to be. and as we are more vulnerable we adjust our riding accordingly. I will go out on a limb here and say that the standard of riding by the good riders is far higher than the standard of driving of the average car driver. Because in the backs of their heads they know that if anything goes wrong they have their bodywork, crumple zones and air bags to protect them. Good point by your old friend Orcadian. If all cars had a large metal spike in the centre of the steering wheel standards of driving would rocket. Though banning heaters in cars is no good as modern cars all have the outside temperature displayed on the dash. And how many drivers do you know who don't look further than the vehicle in front rather than far ahead to spot potential hazards? I used to do it when I drove a car.

People say 'It isn't you it's everyone else.' True, but how many of us can spot a terrible driver a mile away? Well not quite. And I go back to my point of being seen and defensive riding. I always wear a hi-viz vest, and I can't remember the last time anyone pulled out on me. I think a lot of this 'The driver didn't see me' is more like the rider was going so fast the driver didn't have time to see the rider.

But with all the points made by myself and others I still don't have a convincing argument to put to my brother and other members of the 'Motorbikes are dangerous' brigade. I still can't argue that bikes are at least not as safe as cars. Except that if they were myself and many others (including members of this forum) wouldn't still be here if their argument was true.

[Orcadian]

Good points well made MOSW,
In defence of my old mate Norman, sadly no longer with us, I will say that his comment was made many years ago, when there was only a speedo to watch (with a metal needle - remember those?) and certainly nothing to say what temperature it was out or in!
He was an experience motorcyclist (before anyone ever used the derogatory term 'biker') and I have his ACU National Rally plaques from 1954 and 55.
He had a great many memorable sayings, not related really to this topic - one such when being tail-gated he would say 'If you want to be in front, you should have got up earlier!'

I certainly agree fully with your assertion that the standard of good riders is way above the average car driver. Many of us have passed the IAM test for motorcycles and have and read copies of Roadcraft.

Keep up the good work and keep honing your skills, even at 76, I'm still keen to learn new things,
Ian

Oh, forgot to add - you'll never convince your Bro - he's set on being right - no point in wasting your breath, just get out and enjoy the ride!

[Ministerofsillywalks]

Your bit at the end is certainly right (as is all of your post). Like most people who have never had a bike he is convinced he is right. After a few months on two wheels he may change his mind. But of course that will never happen.

What really riles me is the attitude to two-wheelers being so different to that in other countries. Go to Italy for example and say they are dangerous and you will get laughed at. What I am afraid of is that one day I will run out of arguments and have to go back to those horrible 4-wheeled metal box things. Removing the greatest pleasure in my sad little life. What makes things worse is that my old Mum (96 in August bless 'er) is a terrible worrier and always has been. And what my brother said (in her presence) has only made her worse. More pressure to give up riding. For her peace of mind.