Honda Vultus anyone seen this?

[wozza]

The biggest problem i see with it is it wabts to change up a gear when you are going slow say around a roundabout...what i do now if i want a lower gear is stick it in sports mode.
Sorted.
Lyn.

Aha...I switch to manual mode... It's funny how everyone has their different preferences for which 'mode' to be in....

[bikerdezzie]

Reason I like DCT is the fact it goes up n down gears like a bike with sound to match, I got sick of the constant drone of a normal cvt engine especially with a loud pipe fitted, the dct sounds great with a nice set of pipes but will not just be like turning up the volume full blast on the motorway etc, the sound levels will go up and down, big plus points!

[horobags]

very good point dezzie, I think thats why im liking the dct.

[irev]

Well, DCT is great then.
Apart from the chain oiling
And spares prices
And purchase cost

The SigFiddy has been lumped in with the DCT for the purpose of discussion.
Yet the 650 IS a CVT scooter... albeit a complex one.
For that matter, so is the Mana.

So what we all want is a CVT, with a kick-down, lock-down feature. Even today, the cost discrepancy between CVT and DCT buys a lot of fuel, belts, rollers and tyres.

Anyone got a very high-miler DCT who can comment on the running costs? `Half-time` clutches must still wear out and need replacing or servicing. I'll bet that is expensive.

Makes you wonder why the NM-4 (on topic alert) doesn't have a belt (no shaft drive? Deauville seemed to get by nicely in the market because it had one, but hey ho, these designers must come from art college not mechanical engineering backgrounds if they spend their time watching anime and manga, so why would we expect common-sense?)

[maxiscoot nz]

I like the concept to but i also like the fact that the cvt is so easy to work on, inexpensive and great when it is tuned to your ride.
Those new wet clutches and sophisticated set ups are all well and good but shit i wouldnt want to strip a box or have to work on it

[wozza]

Well, DCT is great then.
Apart from the chain oiling
And spares prices
And purchase cost

The SigFiddy has been lumped in with the DCT for the purpose of discussion.
Yet the 650 IS a CVT scooter... albeit a complex one.
For that matter, so is the Mana.

So what we all want is a CVT, with a kick-down, lock-down feature. Even today, the cost discrepancy between CVT and DCT buys a lot of fuel, belts, rollers and tyres.

Anyone got a very high-miler DCT who can comment on the running costs? `Half-time` clutches must still wear out and need replacing or servicing.

I have absolutely no idea of the cost discrepancy over long term ownship, but I'll worry about that as and when I have a problem. Until then it's not even worth thinking about and I'll just continue to enjoy riding my bike.
.
The highest mileage DCT I've heard about so far is 36,000 miles with no problems whatsoever (so far). Also upto this point in time DCT has already proved itself extremely reliable. However, it will take another few years so we can see more high mileage ones before we really see the truth of the matter.

Irev, you mentioned about BMW sticking with CVT etc for their scoots etc inspite of being a high tech company. Yes that is the case, but what you're forgetting is that the BMW is already a very expensive machine - too expensive in fact, even without incorporating DCT.
Haven't we also read on here about BMW having problems with there CVT set up? I'm sure someone mentioned this a little while back. BMW seem to have far more problems with their scoots than Honda have experienced with all 3 of their NC models. The real problem so far has been the choice of chains. Where machines have experienced premature chain wear.. Some owners have replaced the offending chains with a far higher quality spec chain, or even gone up a chain size.

[Bluebottle]

My preference would be a CVT with overdrive rather than a kick down.
That way I could drop the rpm for economy/engine stress during high speed cruise.

Any other time a CVT with well matched torque/power bands does everything I want

[irev]

Don't recall any repeated issues with the Beemer CVT (Mini owners will have a different opinion, but it's a Mini, not a maxi...). But it's built by Kymco, so there may always be a QC issue in batches. Same can be said for anything built in Germany these days...

There have been reported issues with DCT (actually in cars and bikes) but nothing that suggests a trend, more people getting used to it (there was a rash of `gearbox fault` whiners that were traced to inadvertent pressing of the manual button, too-high idle or a software glitch whereby the gearchange didn't match the expected response - I'd suggest this is precisely what Honda are alluding to when referring to a new `learning` ECU in the latest models, and I'm sure that sight unseen, older ECU's will be remapped at service time).

I put it down to riders needing to `learn` about their steeds - a learning curve considerably shortened by users migrating from CVT-equipped maxis.

But the complexity of the engineering and software is what makes it cost, and yet a well set-up CVT can do around 80-90% of the computer controlled service and serve for everyday riding cheaper and more cost-effectively - the Hondas work over a relatively narrow rev range that optimises low-end torque - EXACTLY what CVT in ATV's and quads are set up to deal with, so I can't see the cost:benefit argument, until the volumes increase and per-unit cost reduces.

Anyone know if the DCT in the NC is based on those in the cars? If so, then the ultimate solution is to design a unit that meets both requirements: The small size, better packaging and lighter weight benefits the cars in innumerable ways, while the massive surge in production numbers and parts commonality provides a reduction or even elimination in the price differential for the two-wheel market. Perhaps that is Hondas' ultimate goal?

[irev]

My preference would be a CVT with overdrive rather than a kick down.
That way I could drop the rpm for economy/engine stress during high speed cruise.

Any other time a CVT with well matched torque/power bands does everything I want

I'd agree with that. A forced maintained high(er) gear is the one area where a manual or DCT box has the advantage, although you can get some of it even with CVT by very careful throttle control to allow the transmission to `settle` at the highest ratio. It does defeat the object of making things `simple` and puts the burden back on the skills of the rider though... and you can't force the higher ratio when skill says you can use it, but the system says `no`.
Probably where Suzuki started with SECVT... and again, we're back to the relative merits of the Mana-style Controlled CVT v. DCT.

DCT clearly holds the advantage in the `normal` motorcycle engine (12,000rpm+ redline. torque peak north of 6,000 etc) as it can deal with the range of ratios that a CVT can't, but here we are talking about a low operating rev range and, in particular, a low redline.

[wozza]

This is an interesting thread... Lots to learn on my part.

Irev, someone mentioned on here (can't remember who) about Kymco advised BM not to do something with their CVT a certain way. Unfortunately I can't remember exactly what was said mores the pity.

Perhaps some people prefer the feel of DCT, which was mentioned earlier that CVT lacks. But the marvellous thing is there is a choice to suit most people.

I have now asked a question on both UK and USA forums to try and discover any high mileage DCT bikes and any problems owners have incurred. Hopefully I'll be able to get back to you with a bit more info soon.