BMW C600 reliability problems

[Data]

Hi Sku, +1 on the Myroad 700 being a different engine to the BMW. I've actually seen one now (French tourist in the UK had one). Had a good look over it and it's a nice bike. Quality looks good.

One area of your post which is maybe a bit contentious now is the fact that Czech, Taiwan and Chinese products actually don't just compete with German parts for quality, but in many cases do actually exceed in quality and build. Obviously, not all but the general trend is going that way. This is in cars, bike/scooters. I sight VW and Skoda vehicles as an example. VW turned to Skoda (an old Czech firm in Slovakia) to solve their many build quality issues and reliability problems. Skoda never experienced any of those problems in the main and now Skoda build many parts for VW such as floor pans, gearboxes, engines etc and VW has now crept back up the reliability and build quality chart after being at the bottom of the league, even below Landrover for years in surveys such as JD Power etc. It's going that way with bikes of all kinds too.

I think BMW did a bad thing if the press is to be believed. They ignored Kymco's advice about possible problems with their scooter engine design, particularly with the transmission which Kymco had grave doubts about concerning economy and long term reliability. Clearly the BMW was a hurried design in my book but it is evolving now, albeit using the customers as test candidates! Not fair really.

[MrGrumpy]

Clearly the BMW was a hurried design in my book but it is evolving now, albeit using the customers as test candidates! Not fair really.

It may look hurried, was it really? I'm sure BMW were exploring concepts for years - and it took ages between the announcement that there would be scooters and them actually appearing. Though there again, production was delayed due to various issues, so maybe they didn't devote much brain power to doing a good design in the first place. As for the transmission, all they had to do was copy the Tmax for goodness sake.....

[SkuTorr]

[quote="Data"]
Clearly the BMW was a hurried design in my book but it is evolving now, albeit using the customers as test candidates! quote]

"Evolving" would mean it has been redesigned/improved in an appreciable way...NOT!

1) Parts falling off/recalls...they just put in stronger fasteners and don't address design shortcomings, i.e. after thought rear top box mounting, non-waterproof side stand switches, etc.

2) Tensioner failure/recall...put a non-defective spring in replacement tensioners (NEVER should have happened)

3) Clutch chatter/glazing problems...replace with THE EXACT SAME CLUTCH? REALLY?
Why not just sub-out to Union Materials and install the HIT Clutch? Piaggio uses Dr. Pulley Sliders in their products. Oh, WAIT, you can get replacement clutches FREE from your subcontractor, and credit to offset the Warrantee Labor to replace them? All about the $$$ and NOT the product...

4) Porous engine castings, leaking rear chain drive housings, worn rear chain/gear drive sets, coolant leaks, defective dash electronics, leaking clutch shaft oil seals, etc., etc. These are all BAD MANUFACTURING with substandard materials and poor quality control. NONE of it should have happened, especially with a "premium" marque like BMW.

They just slapped-together a slightly larger, cheap copy of a Mark2 Tmax with a bigger motor and cut every corner available to save $$$. What an embarrassment...

[wozza]

I think SkuTorr is spot on, and it's not just the scooter models BMW are having problems with either. The new model R1200RT and GS all have warranty recalls on them.

[newscooter]

It's now coming out that the mega pricey 6 cylinder model is having problems with the gearbox and engine !

[MrGrumpy]

It's now coming out that the mega pricey 6 cylinder model is having problems with the gearbox and engine !

Six clylinder BMW? Have I missed something? There seemed tons of engine electronic issues with the K1600GT even on the press launch - and now BMW say the new R1200RT is dangerous to ride!!!!

[gn2]

the K1600 is a straight six.
Bit like a modern day Z1300 or CBX1000 but much less reliable.

[Data]

Clearly the BMW was a hurried design in my book but it is evolving now, albeit using the customers as test candidates! quote]

"Evolving" would mean it has been redesigned/improved in an appreciable way...NOT!

1) Parts falling off/recalls...they just put in stronger fasteners and don't address design shortcomings, i.e. after thought rear top box mounting, non-waterproof side stand switches, etc.

2) Tensioner failure/recall...put a non-defective spring in replacement tensioners (NEVER should have happened)

3) Clutch chatter/glazing problems...replace with THE EXACT SAME CLUTCH? REALLY?
Why not just sub-out to Union Materials and install the HIT Clutch? Piaggio uses Dr. Pulley Sliders in their products. Oh, WAIT, you can get replacement clutches FREE from your subcontractor, and credit to offset the Warrantee Labor to replace them? All about the $$$ and NOT the product...

4) Porous engine castings, leaking rear chain drive housings, worn rear chain/gear drive sets, coolant leaks, defective dash electronics, leaking clutch shaft oil seals, etc., etc. These are all BAD MANUFACTURING with substandard materials and poor quality control. NONE of it should have happened, especially with a "premium" marque like BMW.

They just slapped-together a slightly larger, cheap copy of a Mark2 Tmax with a bigger motor and cut every corner available to save $$$. What an embarrassment...

Not disagreeing with your analysis, but it's not a copy of a bigger T-max engine for sure. Quite different. The main problem is not cheap materials but poor design on BMW's part. Underspecced engine casings for one most probably. When speccing engine design components you always build in an element of redundancy to all components right down to engine cases. It allows for error in production including variances in quality and purity of alloys etc and for extreme engine loadings. But I believe they have underspecced the engine in several areas. That's based upon what is happening and from what I've seen of one of the C650 engines in bits. I was surprised at some of the specs used. Even my Burgman has military tank specced crank and casings!! But the BMW did to me look a bit flimsy. I can see why the cam chain tensioners fail too. To me it's looks like a money saving excercise was used from the word go and may explain why Kymco were so vocal to BMW over some parts of the engine.

Regarding BMW dealing with these issues. It's usual for manufacturers, especially when fixing newly released bikes and cars to fix things with parts of the same type and design. They make assessments based upon failure rate frequency and mileage etc etc. If they spot a problem they address the problem with production assessmenet and then if needed, with a redesign and or different materials. But if someone comes in with busted cam chain tensioner the option available in the beginning is replace the tensioner with another and it most likely will be the same tension. Unless that is they had become aware of the problem earlier and had initiated a redesign, make and issue order early on. Unfortunately, the problems often can take several months or even a year to fix because they still have to test the re-engineered part/s before issue. This is exactly what we did when situations like this arose on cars. Everyone works the same. The bikes that have had failures will be upgraded when the eventual "proper" fixes come out. So no one need worry too much. The system BMW and most other manufacturers work with actually do work. Behind the scenes BMW is working flat out to fix these problem, you can rest assured of that. Frustrating though for owners and again a sign of the times with some manufacturers.

[SkuTorr]

...but it's been almost THREE YEARS since the initial product roll-out, and NOTHING has been changed, except the colors.

If you go to a BMW dealer website with the parts catalog, you'll find that MYRIAD COMMON repair/wear-replacement parts aren't even AVAILABLE.

i.e.:
1) Engine valves/head/head gasket, or even ENGINE. This is why a bad tensioner bending a valve gets you a NEW BIKE! The BMW dealer can't fix it.
2) Front brake caliper repair kits or calipers. You get two with every bike you buy; no repair possible. Hope they never leak...

If you go through the catalog pages you'll see all the other stuff that isn't available or even stocked by the factory. For one customer in Europe, a regional Manager have had them pull an engine off of the ASSEMBLY LINE to fix a tensioner-killed bike.

Three years and NO PARTS AVAILABILITY??? There just aren't enough excuses you can make about that...

[Globs]

Three years and NO PARTS AVAILABILITY??? There just aren't enough excuses you can make about that...

That's appalling!
Sounds like they have overstretched themselves with the huge amount of failures. I bet you their accountants are still wondering why they haven't seen all of the expected savings of their great wheeze of cheapening out!