Piaggio out Burger the Burgman.

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As Sym improves it's dealer network, and it will especially now it has proper maxi scooters coming online, their sales will rocket.

What makes you think that bigger capacity machines will improve the dealer network or result in increased sales? Bigger scoots with bigger engines always attract more interest and sales at all levels, complimenting the sales of all sizes of scooter. They certainly make a manufacturer look serious about what they sell. This has happend time and time again and is proven.
Are you forgetting that the world's most popular vehicle of all time (by a long way) was only 50 to 90cc...?

Not relavent to this discussion

It's lack of dealers that has held them back, not the performance or quality of the bikes.

Lack of decent dealers, price, provenance and lack of brand identity.

They do have some decent dealers, but not enough of them. There's no problem with provenance or brand identity. For years they built engines for Honda and some actual bikes too. Top quality stuff. Sym of course continue to supply engines to a number of prominent manufacturers of scooters of all sizes and are well known for their reliability and robustness

The Maxsym 400i is a proper maxi and nearly £1500 cheaper than the Burgman 400z abs, and the 2012 Maxsym is better equipped with it's traction control and abs.

But The Maxsym is the same price as the X10 which is a proper maxi. Yes it is but not as powerful. Similar hp doesn't always equal same power, it's torque as well, how much and where it is in the rev range that makes the big difference especially for two up riding
Yet to be seen if the ABS Maxsym will make it to these shores, after all remember that the ABS Downtown didn't. It will, and so will the Downtown as all bike over 125 must have abs under the new eu rules
The X10 will do all the Maxsym will do and more, it will go much longer between services. Granted the service intervals are longer (oil and filter at 6000 odd miles is good), but what do you mean by it doing more than a Maxsym? Certainly it won't outperform one.
Oh, almost forgot, the ABS 400 Burger isn't exactly a big seller..... My dealer is selling them hand over fist at the moment...between 4-6 per week. He cannot get enough of them, that's Orwell's. All being sold to ex big bikers like me. Smaller machines always outsell the bigger ones, that's always the case. You don't sell as many 1000cc or 650 bikes as 250's or 125's. The Burgman has been one of the biggest selling maxi's of all time and has been in continuous production for 14 years. It's last revamp kept it at the forefront and it's still one of the best on the market in my view. It gets a good press too

The Maxsym isn't really aimed at the 330cc X10 in my opinion as the performance of the X10 doesn't equal the Burgman 400 or the Maxsym 400 from what I gather from reading the first impressions and watching the videos.

I don't think that Sym are aiming at anything, looks to me like they are flailing around blindly. Piaggia are aiming at the 400 market, but with a much smaller engine. Big bikers won't buy it, but obviously people like you coming from a small engined bike will. And it will be a good ride make no mistake I'm sure. The Maxsyms are designed to capitalise on the big scooter market and catch people like me who want a big machine with real clout. From the tests I have read about the Maxsym 400 it leaves the Piaggio for dust. That's where the torque makes itself felt.
The Maxsym is far too expensive and I believe it will be a flop in terms of UK sales. Heck, you're so mixed up on this price thing and you haven't got a clue!
You don't pay Ducati prices for a Hyosung 650, why would you pay Piaggio prices for a Sym...? Because the Syms are manufactured to a much better standard and their quality is consistent. It's also a lot more machine for your money than the (to me) overpriced 330cc X10 and it has better warranty. My dealer had to let Piaggio go, like many other have, due to the flakey quality of some Piaggio models and the consistently very poor customer service regarding warranty and spare parts which often takes weeks to arrive. My nearest Piaggio dealer is now 40 miles away and he is not very enthusiastic about Piaggio for the reasons I've mentioned. That's two Piaggio dealers in my area that are now gone for the same reasons...not confidence inspiring.

The X10 may have a 90mph top speed but it won't have the torque and therefore probably not the acceleration of the Burgman or Maxsym, which most people want to have.

Rubbish.
Most maxis spend the bulk of their time one up and on the few occasions that two-up is called for, the 330 X10 will have enough poke for the job.
According to reports I've seen, the Maxsym 400 peak torque is less than 2 Nm more than the 32 Nm of the 330 X10.
Maxsym peak power is less than 2 hp more than the 33 hp of the 330 X10.
So there's a not much to pick between them in terms of performance, but fuel economy may prove to be a different kettle of fish altogether.

Frankly you are speaking tosh! Mine spends a considerable amount of it's road time with two of us on it. I cruise at 75mph most of the time on the dual carriageways in complete ease on the 400z abs Burgman. It's a joy to ride, and it has plenty of power in reserve. The 330cc engine will probably do that but it won't be as happy or a spritley as the Burgman and it won't have the power reserves either, guaranteed. But that won't detract from it being a good bike that someone like your goodself will enjoy. It just won't appeal to those of us that want a more powerful maxi.

Yet they are asking a lot of money for it in 330cc format.

Not really, it's only five hundred quid more than a Yamaha X-Max 250 and is a far better specced machine.

The Maxysm 600i will likely not cost more than a Burgman 400 either and will be directly aimed at the maxi's like the Silverwing, and Six Fiddy Burgman etc etc. So the price will be right, quality above reproach, But the X10 is a great scooter by the look of it and it will sell well I'm sure but in the next class down from the Burgman and Maxsyms of this world. Just my take on it...

Wrong direction, X10 is a class above as I'm certain the sales figures will show. I think you are confused, Piaggio say it's aimed at the 400's but it's too over priced and has too little power to be competitive in that field in my view.
Time will tell if what people want is a stylish, modern, efficient well specced sleek Italian 330, an overpriced Taiwanese 400 barge with gimmicky discs and calipers or an overpriced tired old burger way past it's sell by date.
P.S, the Silverwing and big burger don't sell very well either.

I think you must be very young or just don't know much!

But...at the end of the day it's what rocks your boat that counts. The X10 is a fine machine but it's a 500cc for me that would be needed.

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gn,,,,, go buy your x10 and be happy

Not yet, it will be at least 18 months till I change scoot and the market will probably have changed by then.

... then please stop calling people stupid (which is what you are doing)

No, that's not what I'm doing at all, I'm merely participating in a discussion.
You are simply twisting things around to suit your own agenda.

I think it is you who should re-read your posts to see it is you twisting things around to your own agenda and making uninformed remarks...but hey ho!

the great proover is riding the products to see what they are really like.

I agree.
So has anyone on here actually ridden both of them yet?

When I was actually looking to buy a 400 maxi the Burgman was the obvious choice for me due to Sym dealer issues (lack of for the time being but their dealer network is expanding). But I did ride the Burgmans both Six Fiddy, and the 400 and I had arranged a ride on the 400i Maxsym. There was no trouble at that time in getting one. The dealer for Sym was very helpful and got one in for me to see and try very quickly. However, the timing of events in my life dictated that I buy the Burgman straight away as I needed to get going even before trying the Sym400. Therefore I didn't ride the Sym but did get a really good look at it and sat on it. It was superbly finished and I would not have had any real quarms about buying it, accept for the dealer at that time being 35 miles away from my home. Shame, I'd have save a fair bit of money. That said I'm very very happy with my over priced, tired old Burger way past it's sell by date!!, as you would put it.

[gn2]

Not relavent to this discussion

Absolutely relevant.
You said that bigger maxis would mean more dealers yet it's the small capacity stuff which sells in bulk and is what keeps dealers in business.

They do have some decent dealers, but not enough of them. There's no problem with provenance or brand identity. For years they built engines for Honda and some actual bikes too. Top quality stuff. Sym of course continue to supply engines to a number of prominent manufacturers of scooters of all sizes and are well known for their reliability and robustness

You know that, I know that but the great unwashed don't.

Yes it is but not as powerful. Similar hp doesn't always equal same power, it's torque as well, how much and where it is in the rev range that makes the big difference especially for two up riding

Makes no odds where it is in the rev range because the operator does not control the gear ratios, it's done automatically...
Just nail the throttle open and let the CVT sort it out.

My dealer is selling them hand over fist at the moment...between 4-6 per week. He cannot get enough of them, that's Orwell's.

Averaged over a year, total UK sales of the 400 Burger is less than that.
http://howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/suzuki ... l0#!newreg
http://howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/suzuki ... l1#!newreg

Big bikers won't buy it, but obviously people like you coming from a small engined bike will. And it will be a good ride make no mistake I'm sure. The Maxsyms are designed to capitalise on the big scooter market and catch people like me who want a big machine with real clout.

Yet to be seen how much "clout" they have, as far as I'm aware there has yet to be a proper back to back comparison test done between the two of them.
As for size, my last bike was a 900 and my next machine could be anything, maybe even a 400 Burger.
The PCX is the smallest capacity machine I have ever owned.

From the tests I have read about the Maxsym 400 it leaves the Piaggio for dust. That's where the torque makes itself felt.

But the torque figures are almost identical.

Heck, you're so mixed up on this price thing and you haven't got a clue!

Time will tell.
I'm willing to wager that in the UK the Piaggio X10 will outsell the Maxsym 400 by at least three to one and sales figures are where to look to measure the success of any particular model.
Sym and Kymco are yet to have any success, have a look at the How Many Left website.

I think you must be very young or just don't know much!

Yep I'm young alright, I've only been riding motorbikes since 1976 professionally and for pleasure and have owned all sorts, from an MZ to a Kawasaki ZG1300A1 (one of the first of the DFi ones)
I've only ridden a few hundred thousand miles throughout the UK and Europe in that time, so plainly I can't possibly have learned anything.

[ridinhigh]

so still a learner

[gn2]

Yep, learning all the time.

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Not relavent to this discussion

Absolutely relevant.
You said that bigger maxis would mean more dealers yet it's the small capacity stuff which sells in bulk and is what keeps dealers in business.
That's what I said, but discussing a 50cc or 90cc Honda is not relevant


Yes it is but not as powerful. Similar hp doesn't always equal same power, it's torque as well, how much and where it is in the rev range that makes the big difference especially for two up riding

Makes no odds where it is in the rev range because the operator does not control the gear ratios, it's done automatically...
Just nail the throttle open and let the CVT sort it out.
The CVT won't alter the amount of torque your engine produces, that's done by the engine revs and throttle, and you. If you get more experience of CVT and engines in scooters and you'll see what everyone is saying. Where torque is produced in the rev range and how much of it there is, is massively important to how the scooter goes, the transmission type is irrelavant in that respect. The transmission just delivers the available torque and power, so if the it's aint as powerful torque wise, it aint gonna keep up with the Burgmans or Maxsyms of this world.

My dealer is selling them hand over fist at the moment...between 4-6 per week. He cannot get enough of them, that's Orwell's.

Averaged over a year, total UK sales of the 400 Burger is less than that.
It will be, as seasonal factors come into it. In March and April he was selling loads

Big bikers won't buy it, but obviously people like you coming from a small engined bike will. And it will be a good ride make no mistake I'm sure. The Maxsyms are designed to capitalise on the big scooter market and catch people like me who want a big machine with real clout.

Yet to be seen how much "clout" they have, as far as I'm aware there has yet to be a proper back to back comparison test done between the two of them.
Yes, I haven't seen a back to back but have read two tests on the Maxsym 400, and a review and also a video of the Piaggio 330cc. Both were very good indeed but it's clear the Piaggio doesn't have the same clout as the Maxsym. But that won't put too many people off I suspect as the people looking at the 330cc Piaggio are those wanting a smaller engined maxi and you wouldn't expect it to go like a Burgman or Maxsym 400. And from what I've read it clearly doesn't because it's engine is getting on for 20% smaller. It's a very good scooter though and should sell well if the quality is maintained. And that in the final analysis is what put me off Piaggio in the first place. They can be flaky producing good nicely finished scoots in one batch, but the next batch is less good. Dunno why that is but it pisses off the dealers because they only get paid half the actual labour cost to fix things under warranty. Thats why so many are chucking in their franchises with Piaggio, that and a load of other stuff that they have to put up with.




From the tests I have read about the Maxsym 400 it leaves the Piaggio for dust. That's where the torque makes itself felt.

But the torque figures are almost identical.
I've not seen any power or torque figures listed for the Maxsym or indeed the Piaggio only the figures you have posted, so I cannot confirm what you say. The tests I read on both (reviews on the Piaggio), didn't have the figures for publication. But to be clear, as I said earlier, it's not just about how much power, how much torque etc, it's about where it is in the rev range too. That's crucial. There are many other factors such as gearing, weight of the bike etc, but it's where the power is that defines how it goes along with those other factors. I can say that with confidence, because as some on here know, I'm an engine design engineer currently working on a new super diesels for bikes and cars.

Heck, you're so mixed up on this price thing and you haven't got a clue!

Time will tell.
I'm willing to wager that in the UK the Piaggio X10 will outsell the Maxsym 400 by at least three to one and sales figures are where to look to measure the success of any particular model.
Sym and Kymco are yet to have any success, have a look at the How Many Left website.
It takes more than sales figs to define success which is what you are using.
No doubt the Piaggio will outsell the Maxsym for lots of reasons.

I think you must be very young or just don't know much!

Yep I'm young alright, I've only been riding motorbikes since 1976 professionally and for pleasure and have owned all sorts, from an MZ to a Kawasaki ZG1300A1 (one of the first of the DFi ones)
I've only ridden a few hundred thousand miles throughout the UK and Europe in that time, so plainly I can't possibly have learned anything.

It's mainly your attitude then that got many spitting feathers! Either that or you just didn't realise how rude you were sounding. I suspect the later...

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Tbh I was gonna get a burger... but once I saw the maxsym in the flesh it won me over... it is a burger 400 clone.. but with added best bits like the larger wheels and led lights.. mine does have ABS too ... also.. It runs at 70 mph at only 5000 rpm and is really food on mpg... am currently running at 77 mpg... and as It runs In more it will only get better... finally have. Had loadsa good things said about Its looks from bikers.... one chap on a BMW 1200 tourer if it was a bike... or a scooter with attitude lol... I love it !

Fingers, would welcome a real world review when you've got time. I see it runs nice low rpm's at 70mph. No wonder it does so well on fuel. My Burgman runs at 6400rpm at an indicated 70mph which is fine too and it still seems to give good mpg's. But there are huge similarities between our two bikes I noticed when I went to see one. I like the slightly bigger wheels on the Sym. Glad you are getting on ok with it. Sym motors are competely bullet proof from what I know of them. My ex-Suzuki dealer where I live has recently taken on board the Lambretta scooters. They use Sym engines and that was a main reason for him taking them on as it is a known reliable brand of engines.

Sorry mac if we've gone off topic a bit.

[gn2]

I've not seen any power or torque figures listed for the Maxsym or indeed the Piaggio only the figures you have posted, so I cannot confirm what you say. The tests I read on both (reviews on the Piaggio), didn't have the figures for publication. But to be clear, as I said earlier, it's not just about how much power, how much torque etc, it's about where it is in the rev range too. That's crucial.


Here you go, these are what I've been quoting.
X10 Brochure
Maxsym 400 specs
I would suggest that both have enough power and torque to sit comfortably at the UK speed limit two up and in my book, that's what's known as "enough" and "enough" is all you "need".

[macamxthe1st]

As I said in last post, struck Sym off the short list due to dealer/importer set up (interestingly the dealers don't seem to like the importer much). Been looking hard at the Piaggio set up and while it appears better than Sym it is poor compared to to the back up and support available to me where I live from Suzuki. So it looks like Piaggio are heading for my "Reject Bin" also. My initial point however still stands that currently the Burgman looks overpriced and past its sell buy date compared to the X10. So lets see what Suzuki come up with, if it ain't really good then we will keep what we have now and use the money to buy beer, a lot off beer.

Geoff.

[barryG]

gn2.... a scoot keeping up to the 70mph UK limit might be enough for you but, some of us tour abroad where those speeds are higher. Factor in luggage and a headwind and lower powered scooters will struggle. I had a Vespa GTV 250 once, one up it would do an indicated 85mph, even with my wife on board it would nudge 80mph but before I rode to Germany I put all our luggage on and rode along the A35 with the throttle wide open... and it never topped 65mph. Back it went and I bought my Xevo 400. The Burger 400 is yet an unknown quantity touring wise for me, but that will be done next month.

Theres no way the 330cc engine in such a big scoot will have the grunt of an engine of 400cc. My wife owns a Pug 107 with 68hp, I once had a Fabia with 70hp.... now which was quicker? The Fabia is bigger, heavier etc butit was quicker off the line and through the gears. In every respect the Fabia outperformed the 107. Both engines are 3 cylinder... but the Fabia was a 1.2 as opposed to a 1.0 in the 107.... theres no substitute for CCs as the yanks say!