Burgman 400 & 650 new models 2013

[barryG]

I had a GS850 for sometime and it was a brilliant handler.... however those BMW R series were very weird indeed.

[gn2]

I had a GS850 for sometime and it was a brilliant handler....

Exactly, the GS850 handled really well and that was designed back in the seventies, just think what should be possible now.

[Bluebottle]

Is that enough of a try?

No

Anyway you seem to have shot down your own argument, a modern bike with shaft drive wouldn't handle like a "vintage" one,

That wasnt my argument - or "Newton's third law" as I like to call it. If it is an urban myth the vintage and modern will be no different.

My argument was, what type of shaft are we looking at, something new? is it enough to solve the negatives, what weight, what price? That would go some way quantifying the pricing and penalties and are they worth the hit.

However, why spend the time on all that. Your experience shows there are no technical problems, insignificant HP and mpg losses and I'm sure the price shouldn't be much different. All sorted.

[gn2]

No

So to your way of thinking, my experience riding a variety of shaft drive bikes for many thousands of miles means that I have been unable to arrive at any understanding of their handling or the pros and cons of shaft drive.
Good, glad that's sorted.

If it is an urban myth the vintage and modern will be no different.

Bullshit.
Vintage shaft drive bikes handled acceptably well enough.
Modern ones which have benefitted from advances in design should handle better than their antecedents.
If there was no difference between old and new then that would make designers like yourself sort of redundant?

[Bluebottle]

Indeed

[Data]

For me the ideal motorbike would probably be a modernised version of the BMW K75.
An 80mpg 120 triple with shaft drive and 10,000 mile service intervals, now that would be something.

Tee...hee! If only I could tell you what I know about the future development of bikes...it would blow your mind!

I definitely see where Bluebottle is coming from with his engineering experience in some of the points he makes. He, and I include myself in this, looks at things with a clinical technicality that is necessary for his job. 'We' do that and it gives a slightly different slant to any debate we engage in regarding engineering and/or technical matters. Connecting our views to consumer views is sometimes difficult in engineering terms. The consumer wants 'this' and thinks 'that' is better, but in engineering terms, it often isn't. The example of 'chain' or 'shaft' is a good one. But it doesn't necessarily mean the end outcome will be bad if you give the consumer what he wants. I think what we are seeing and are going to see more of in the future is considerably better economy from big bikes and scooters too. That is inevitable and is a requirement. My car goes much much faster than my Burgman, and does nearly as many miles per gallon whilst carrying 5 people. But...I still take the bike or should that be scooter, or maxi!!!dunno!

[Bluebottle]

Tee...hee! If only I could tell you what I know about the future development of bikes...it would blow your mind!

Frustrating when that happens but you are safe - you won't be believed and will be left trying to knit with snow.

Knitting snow and point scoring doesn't get to the answer.
GN2 is a bit put out because I completely disregard his experience with old shaft drive bikes, probably sees my "no" as flippant, and I'm simply caught out by this list of old bikes he has ridden.

Except I said "try vintage shaft drive" not "old" or "80's"
If I need to explain details like what vintage means (and then argue about it) there is no chance of getting to the more interesting, relevant and complicated stuff - so I just gave up.

[gn2]

But your introducing "vintage" to the discussion is a total irrelevance because the discussion was about shaft drive not being an option on current bikes.
If you can accept that "vintage" is an irrelevance, it can be discarded and the discussion can move on.
So come on, give us your "interesting, relevant and complicated stuff", I'm eager to learn about your ideas for creating a modern shaft drive system.
Or are you just a shaft drive hater?

[gn2]

The consumer wants 'this' and thinks 'that' is better, but in engineering terms, it often isn't.

Superior engineering solutions need not deliver what the customer actually wants, just ask Harley Davidson.
The customer is always right...

[MrGrumpy]

Superior engineering solutions need not deliver what the customer actually wants, just ask Harley Davidson.
The customer is always right...

Now that could be a whole topic in itself!!! How much of this is about engineering, and how much is about style, or general fashionable trends?
A curious thing is that whilst Harley owners appear to demand things that resemble bikes that were out of date in the 1950s, quite a lot of modern technology is employed to supply their vintage needs! ABS, Fuel injection...and some Harleys have to have the appearance of having no rear suspension, but actually do have, but its hidden! I suspect if HD gave their riders exactly what they say they want, the owners would be appalled at the primitiveness and uncomfortableness of their bikes! On the other hand, Sportsibke owners demand all the latest fashionable gizmos (as used by racers), but the actual riding experience of the product doesn't actually move on much at all, or even go backwards as sportsbikes become more and more race focused.