Maxsym 600 review and burgman 400 comparison

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Du PontChardon
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Re: Maxsym 600 review and burgman 400 comparison

Post by Du PontChardon »

Thanks for a really comprehensive report, quite a rarity on here. I've often seen incredibly low mileage Sym 400/600's advertised and have been tempted, although I do not really need anything of that size. So, until I finally hang-up my riding gear, I will stick with my two, budget-priced Joyride 200's which are cheap to run and maintain, with genuine spares and service items often very cheap for this model on Ebay.

knight2
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Re: Maxsym 600 review and burgman 400 comparison

Post by knight2 »

I took a 600 maxsym for a test ride before I bought the 650 burgman and have to to agree with you. I took it for a ride on a very bright January day and the first thing I noticed was the way it delivered the power, low down very rough, though it accelerated very briskly. Knowing it was a big single I expected it to bit a bit rough but it was worse than I expected. The ride was harsher than the Burgman, but not a lot. I wanted a scooter that was nice and roomy and it wasn't quite. The dashboard looked very nice I liked it more that the Burgmans until the sun got on it then it was useless and that was the final straw that made me decide to buy the Burgman and not the Maxsym. They were near enough the same price £3995, the Maxsym 600 was a 2016 with about 5000 miles on the clock and the Burgman is a 2012 with 15000, both were in very good condition.
RE the dreaded cvt belt, the horror stories put me off buying one for ages, but I read as much as I could about them and the reasons they broke and it seemed a lot had been abused or not maintained properly, not all but a lot. I figured that there must be thousands of Burgman 650's out there that aren't having problems, because looking on various forums they don't seem to have many problems so I thought if I could find one that appears to be well looked after ( and this one does though I would have been happier if the mileage had been a bit lower) I would give it a go. One of my first jobs will be to check the cvt air filter, but if the rest of the bike is anything to go by it will be in good condition.
I have had the burgman for about a month now and due to the inclement weather I haven't been able to ride it as much as I would like but have done about 500 mile and I'm very happy with it, took it out last Friday in very windy conditions and only the very worst gust seemed to bother it and then not much.
Would I have bought the Maxsym if I hadn't ridden the Burgman, maybe, but not without trying a Burgman 400 first, because that was next on my list. On both Burgmans I prefer the look of the older ones, which mine is.

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Data
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Re: Maxsym 600 review and burgman 400 comparison

Post by Data »

Just don't keep it too long. The belts eventually always break as there is no recommended replacement time or mileage for replacement. It's also far too expensive for the average owner to have this done under normal circumstances. That's why Suzuki don't advise a date for replacement. Under normal circumstances you can expect around 65-80,000 miles if looked after and run in correctly. Some go further if it's not thrashed.

I've had two of the 650's. Both broke their belts at 35,000 and 45,000 miles respectively. I fixed both and it wasn't fun. Even doing it myself (I've done the factory course on the Burgmans) it cost thousands for the parts. Both needed new gearbox bearings too as the belt usually takes them out when they break. It's risky not to replace them. So very expensive even when you do it yourself. The main reason they (the belts) break is down to how the bike is broken in. If an owner doesn't follow the factory recommended running in procedure and tries to hurry the process by using the Motoman fast run in technique, the belts will break early. Or if an owner just overstresses the belt by giving the bike too much throttle too often during running in, again the belts often break early.

Both my bikes (company bikes) were run in by a colleague who thought he was doing me a favour. He went the Motoman route not knowing the Burgman 650 was not suitable for that technique. The belts overheat causing permenantly damage to the belt if Motoman is used. The other thing they don't like is high speed cruising over big distances. At the time I was covering around 25-30,000 miles a year at continental speeds. The belts again get very hot. Otherwise they are a superb bike and will give you good service if in more normal use. Enjoy!
Probably not ugly enough for the 'Ugly Bunch'! :lol:

Been riding for 54 years & owned too many bikes to list here...

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OneFootInTheGravy
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Re: Maxsym 600 review and burgman 400 comparison

Post by OneFootInTheGravy »

It's interesting that you give it a 6.5 overall when the average of your individual scores I make out as only 3.6

From your review I find it curious that you buy one again, or is it just a case of 'better the devil you know'?

Rocketman122
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Re: Maxsym 600 review and burgman 400 comparison

Post by Rocketman122 »

@Data thank you sir. I realize fork seal on left side needs to get replaced pronto. its leaking badly. will use 10w. first time for me

saw Delboy's video and seems exactly like maxsym. I love this guy.


@Du PontChardon hey friend. I bought the 600 over the 400 only because I wanted something that rides at highway speeds with low rpm. so no stress on the bike. a jr200 at highway speeds is hitting 7000rpm. the ms is less than 5000. I loved working on all 3 joyrides I owned. easy to get parts for the JR. ms600 isnt, unfortunately. cheers

@ knight2 I think the burgman has the gears slowing it down and has a jerky feeling. the ms feels like the engine is running rough and almost like its running super cold and on off smoothness. one you open it up it wants to go. after 50 its fine, but low speed and in traffic its meh. the b650 has the jerking but the engine is buttery smooth. b650 is my dream scooter, but that cvt scares me. I dont have a garage I could do the work if needed. otherwise Id get that. dont forget, people who are happy with their bikes, are not all posting "my bike is awesome" its only people who are having issues and need help. so all you read is negaive posts. so people have a perceived idea its bad. it takes some massive work to rfix when needed. if I had a garage to do the work over a week then for sure would get it. I too like the older design of it.

@ OneFootInTheGravy you are correct. dont pay attention to the bike on a final number. just be aware of its strengths and weaknesess.

I also had many issues with my b400 but I bought it with many miles and not knowing its past. so if I find one with low miles(I do not buy new anymore), I would get it because I now can care for it track/ keep a log for the things I do on it. I think if someone is interested, just be aware of what youre dealing with.

its more simply built than burgman. it also seems easier to access certain things. 1 thing I absolutely hate is there isnt many around and almost no aftermarket parts for service. for show and little aftermarket bling, yes.

i means less who own and wrench on theirs and less to share knowledge vs burgman. less videos too. the service manual is badly written and hard to understand. the drawing look like some 5 year was sketching it. just be aware. burgman has mcbergsma /le dude videos. good service manual (even 3 different companies) has tons of aftermarket parts. starter stator rotors cvt parts etc. maxsym hardly has any.

you get an initial low price when buying but maintenance services are expensive so, if you buy and do your own, value wise it makes more sense.

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Re: Maxsym 600 review and burgman 400 comparison

Post by Data »

The Burgman 400 after late 2010 is a great bike. Suzuki changed the piston and rings to prevent piston flutter, something the earlier bikes suffered from during high speed cruising. They made several other changes too which made the 400 one of the best well sorted bikes on the market. It has it's foibles like most bikes but the stva thingy is a bit overworked on the web in my view. In all my time dealing with the 400 as a tech and owning one I never encountered any trouble with those. But check any second hand bikes for smooth starting and running as if that is faulty it will soon show. The voltage regulators did give some issues too on virtually all models and these got replaced free of charge by Suzuki. The 400 is capable of covering well over 100,000 miles on it's motor without needing a rebuild. It will of course require a variator or two and maybe a water pump. Clutches generally go big distances too. I was at bike night some 3 or 4 years ago where I saw a Burgman 400 with over 115,000 miles on the clock. The motor was all original except for the things I've mentioned. It was owned by a guy who bought it new 10 years earlier. He had the Burgman 650 for a couple of years but found the 400 more comfortable and just as capable of a nice 70mph cruise. Top speed on my 2012 exec model was 93mph. So a 70 cruise was no issue. They sound like they are working very hard but in fact, they are not. The motor may rev quite high but the motor is not stressed at all as it is a short stroke engine and has a very low piston speed at high revs compared to a long stroke motor at the same rpm. This makes everything ok, so don't worry about higher revs on the 400. It's meaningless.
Probably not ugly enough for the 'Ugly Bunch'! :lol:

Been riding for 54 years & owned too many bikes to list here...

Rocketman122
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Re: Maxsym 600 review and burgman 400 comparison

Post by Rocketman122 »

have confirmed that the belt scraping in crankcase housing is "normal" and a known issue/flaw. asked a few people, got yes/no answers. then saw this russian mechanic nikolay, in his YT channel where he shows all kinds of jobs he does. so saw him have the same wear marks as me in the housing. finally. after more than 1.5 years of this mystery. I changed so many parts I never really needed.

the video below shows him trying 2 other belts besides the oem. one chinese ,he bought from aliexpress. it is not the right size he says. had this belt. confirmed this. put oem belt on top and tip tied them flush together and chinese belt is longer. mine ripped on me and left me stranded looking for a tow after less then 9000km. cost me cheap to buy and to this add tow cost at 3x the belt amount, so cheap is expensive. will not buy chinese belts again. service interval is at 18000km. btw, after this, I purchjased OEM sym belt (bando is the mfr) and its done 8000km so far., it is scraping the housing (as this is "normal" behaviour-sure it is)

the 2nd belt is a dayco HP3001 belt thats used for snowmbiles. I ordered this belt. $50 shipped. on its way. he says oin the video it doesnt touch the crnakcase housing. I could have chosen other belts that are similar width but even shorter but I was scared the shorter belt may strain itself more on turning and while no scraping in the housing, it may rip from excess stress oin the belt. I now carry an extra belt and variator holder tool I welded up just in case. trauma from last time I got stuck.

he took both belts out for a spin to test drive. he says the dayco is not the best for takeoffs. takeoff feels like 2 people on it. but it pulls like a tractor (his words) OEM belt is 108.5cm length, but this is the inside dimensions im assuming because I measured outside circumference and it was 112.5cm. the dayco is around 2.5cm shorter. though its spec'ed at 30.4mm width (his measurement) and oem width is 28.8mm. it does seem to sit deeper in the clutch assembly by about 5 mm or so. you also need to use a 1.5mm washer as per his recommendation.

you can see the belt and the washer at 1:31 mark.
the problem is the crankcase housing was built for 400cc at first, then they developed the 600 and the rear clutch assembly sits with really tight clearences vs the 400. its basically touching the housing when you install the assembly. so no wonder the belt is scrapping



there is an option in YT for subtitles with auto translate from russian to english. its not too bad and mostly can be understood. my russian friend has helped me to translate some bits but he doesnt do his own servicing so he doesnt understand the technical talk. but that russian mechanic has helped me with a lot of information. he knows the maxsym in and out.

@Data is it possible to run the engine and the belt in the cvt work, then use some sandpaper to get the belt down 0.5mm in width, from both sides? get it to roughly 29mm (oem is 28.8mm) so it its at least the width of the oem belt, more or less and then not have to install a washer?

Rocketman122
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Re: Maxsym 600 review and burgman 400 comparison

Post by Rocketman122 »

over time I learn more and more about "tweaking" the cvt. I started using ptfe dry lubricant, from nikolay's videos. the thing just flies on takeoff. another friend from BUSA.com recommends graphite powder. but imo its something to consider. I noticed when I cleaned the variator cup, it was super dry and hence some slight hesitiation. after ptfe lubricant everything runs so smooth isnide, so it completely slides with no friction. j

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Re: Maxsym 600 review and burgman 400 comparison

Post by Data »

Hi Rocketman, definitely do not attempt to narrow your belt by sanding it down. You will find the belt very quickly starts to come apart. Some makes quicker than others.

The transmission components should always be reassembled 'dry' unless the manual says to use a particular lubricant in certain places. Do not under any circumstances use graphite powder to lube anything especially the rollers. Surprisingly it can cause the rollers to stick.The rollers are self lubricating and the variator must be spotlessly clean at reassembly. If you do that everything will work as it should. Is the PTFE you are using going on wet then drying? Just make sure the PTFE is not the one that dries "sticky" as many do. Usually lubricants do more harm than good if the manufacturer doesn't tell you to use them.

Just one point, many bikes with CVT have belts that lightly touch a point inside the transmission case. This usually happens after a belt replacement. This is of course due to variations in belt size and wear of the sheaves on the bike. As long as the contact point is not being worn away it's fine. Belt contact only usually happens at idle as the belt flaps a bit. If it's hitting the inside of the case at speed that's different.
Probably not ugly enough for the 'Ugly Bunch'! :lol:

Been riding for 54 years & owned too many bikes to list here...

Rocketman122
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Re: Maxsym 600 review and burgman 400 comparison

Post by Rocketman122 »

thanks for the insight and expertise. good information. I appreciate it.

the prfe is from Wurth. not sticky at all. its a dry lube. dries in some 10 minutes. becomes powdery. it really made a huge difference from when I cleaned the variator holder and it was so dry to the touch. almost like sandpaper.
https://www.wurthusa.com/Chemical-Produ ... /p/0893550

ok, so no sanding the belt. Ill try and see how the dayco performs. the belt scrapes in 2 spots.
this is the gallery
https://postimg.cc/gallery/Mz27rKc

these 2 spots here
https://postimg.cc/bdpYjKXk
https://postimg.cc/pyfvGkpr

https://postimg.cc/DW4kqP92

the top left part there, looks like it has a concave strip going through but its convex so belt runs over it.

I think the top left is from high speed and the bottom right near the clutch is from takeoff?

so the shorter dayco snowmobile belt is 2.5cm shorter and from the video, he says it doesnt touch the crankcase housing after drive testing.

I could get a belt from dayco gates or ultimax (you can check by measurements list) that are at 29mm width (which is closer to the 28.8mm oem belt. dayco belt is 30.4) and get something even 4+cm shorter on outside circumference. but I think this would cause too much strain on pulling the belt apart. will try the dayco and see. now, to fabricate a washer. can I use regular sheet metal?

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