Forza 350 vs X-max vs other 300cc scooters?

[YetAnotherMuppet]

I may probably be in the market for a 300ish cc scooter and would like to compare notes / thoughts / recommendations etc

My needs:

• ca. 3,000 miles a year, 95% of which in urban traffic and riding without a passenger. In truth, I do not strictly speaking "need" a 300c, but the insurance for many 125s is more expensive than for more expensive 300cc, and for top models like the Forza or the x-max the price difference between the 125cc and the 300cc isn't great
• I want to be able to install a leg cover, ideally the pro version of the Tucano (the one with a 4-season rain cover + a removable winter lining). This rules out some models. They're ugly but they add a lot to the practicality and convenience - after all, I'm not getting a scooter because it's prettier than an R1...
• I want to install a 47L topbox at the back, for my backpack and helmet, but I'd also want some storage under the seat for things like u-lock, waterproof overtrousers, a spare set of gloves, etc. This rules out things like Vespas.
• being able to absorb potholes and filter in traffic will be way more important than cornering with the knee down.

My background:

• I have ridden all kinds, from 125cc to >1,000cc adventure bikes
• My last scooter was an X-max 300. I loved the engine, the handling, the storage, the consumption (regularly 27kml, ie 77 British mpg, riding only in city traffic). BUT it gave me loads of electrical problems, with some kind of parasitic battery drain that multiple mechanics failed to fix. And I hated the position of the battery; I installed an optimate battery tender cable, but removing the shield to replace the battery was a huge pain.
• I won't get another x-max, but, since it's popular, it's a useful reference for me (e.g. when people say the suspensions of X are better or worse than the x-max)

Potential contenders:

• Honda Forza 350. It seems very similar to the x-max, but with a more easily accessible battery (under the seat, not under the front shield). I am unsure about the mirrors: they probably give better visibility but, being fixed to the fairings, they might hinder filtering. But I noticed there are aftermarket kits to fold the mirrors electrically, at the push of a button.
• Honda ADV 350 : I don't mind the looks (which are not everyone's cup of tea, I get it) but I'm not sure what the advantages vs the Forza would be. Maybe better suspensions? It gives less protection from the rain
• Honda SH : little storage. On older models I hated that the speedo was hard to read (with a full-face helmet, I had to take my eyes off the road), not sure here. I'd get it over the Forza only if it allows better filtering and the suspensions are not worse on potholes (I have read very different opinions).
• Piaggio Beverly 400: It looks smaller than the Forza or X-max but it really isn't. Many reviews suggest its suspensions are more rigid, and the engine is more powerful but with worse mpg, making it a better choice for the motorway than for urban traffic. Less storage under the seat but I could live with it, it's still quite roomy.

Probably ruling out:

• X-max 300: I'm not getting another one, after all the electrical problems I had
• Kymco and Sym: local dealers don't have any stock. Not much cheaper than the Forza; no idea about depreciation and availability of parts.
• Lexmoto: the Pegasus 300 and Aura 300 seems interesting, and competitively priced, but local dealers have no stock and there seem to be no leg covers.
• Vespas. Stolen a lot. Tiny wheels. Too little storage.
• Burgman 400: nice but too expensive

Thoughts? Thanks!

[MrGrumpy]

I'm not a 300cc (ish) scooter owner at the moment, but its something I'm considering as my Tmaxs are way OTT for the riding I do these days. The snag for me is that I do quite a few miles on bumpy country roads, which the Tmax handles superbly, but really make smaller scoots with their 'scooter' engineering struggle, so I'm reluctant to change. I think your thoughts are generally spot on, especially with the ones you rule out, and why.
I used to own a Piaggio Beverly 350. As you say, performance was mega - it certainly could keep up with the Tmax at lower speeds and I once found myself 'cruising' at 85mph on a dual carriageway when I was keen to get home! BUT...the suspension was awful - tricky to ride even in the dry, no feel at all in the wet. It was great around town but hopeless out of it. Before that I had an Honda SH300, which had a super engine, but I hated every thing else about it - extremely cramped, hard ride, dreadful wind protection, no storage (though recent models are much better). On both of those I got something like 70mpg, which I thought was pretty good as I don't hang around and thats what I got from my old 125cc scoot.
The one I would consider is the ADV350 as its supposed to have much better suspension (with longer travel and high-spec shock absorbers) that makes out of town riding much better. I haven't tried it - some reviewers seem to find the suspension harsh round town, but others seem to thinks its great.
The one you haven't mentioned is the Peugeot XP400GT - its a slightly bigger scoot and costs more, but it looks quite effective - similar idea to the ADV350.
There are some interesting Lexmoto scoots around, and they get good reviews, but there is always questions about service and spares.

[YetAnotherMuppet]

I didn't know the Peugeot Xp400, thanks for mentioning it.

In city traffic, was filtering any easier with the SH300 than with the Beverly, or not really? How about suspensions? With my kind of usage, absorbing bumps and potholes is more important than handling an aggressive pace out of town.

The SH seems fairly compact, but according to the official specs it isn't much smaller than the Forza, so don't know about filtering.

[StephenC]

Sounds like you're going for new.

I started on scoots back in 2000 but recent-ish bikes have been Kymasaki J300SE, Xmax 300, Forza 300 and now Kymco DT X360. So I can't comment on the latest Xmax or the Forza 350 directly only the Kymco, which you have discounted.

What I can tell you though is that the 2017 Xmax 300 had the worst rear suspension and frankly most dangerous headlights of any scooter I've ever had. I understand that the latest has better headlamps but don't know about the rest of it. I did get an average 95mpg though.

The Forza was a bit lower powered than the Xmax and the 300 engine relatively ancient so only managed an average 88mpg. It was very practical, if dull. I would expect the 350 is peppier though although not sure if the consumption gets closer to the Xmax's superb Bluecore engine. The ADV is just a re-shell of the Forza really.

I'll mention the X360 while I'm here - upper 80's mpg, good oomph and storage. Very little tech except for ABS and Traction though. Kymco stock is typically low at any dealer but they arrive from the importer very quickly and the dealers generally seem more interested than the bigger brands (worst was Kawasaki with neither importer nor dealer giving a fig for scooters). Can't fault the X360 otherwise, it's a good 'un.

Having had over half a dozen of the larger Pugs over the years - Elystars and the Satelis' - they are well thought out, made in France (the Xmax is Hungary and the Forza Italy, I think), and the 400cc powers the Metropolis 3-wheeler well enough so it'll walk away from any of these above. The engine has around for years and well-proven. The Pug is of a similar "adventure" style to the ADV and X360: very silly really as none of them will get far off-road, its just a styling thing. Personally I like it a lot and it would be my next bike if I weren't planning on stopping with scoots after the X360.

[YetAnotherMuppet]

Well, for my kind of usage I think the best strategy would probably be to buy a low-mileage used from a dealer.
When I did this with the xmax 300, I paid £4,000 for it (with just 2 years and 8k miles) and sold it after 3 years for something like £2,800. Basically in 3 years I paid in depreciation less than the cost of a London annual travelcard (which start at ca. £1,600).

If I used it a lot more and did tens of thousands of miles a year, buying new might make more sense, but that's not my case.

However, since it won't be an urgent purchase, I should probably have the luxury of choosing which model I prefer, and then being able to wait a while till the right one shows up in the used ads. Of course I imagine that scooters like the Forza X-max etc are probably more popular and easier to find used than Kymco Sym Lexmoto etc.

I am undecided on how much having a dealer nearby for servicing should be a factor; Yamaha would be best for this, but I'm not getting another xmax after those electrical nightmares.
Honda, Piaggio, Suzuki and Sym are OK - the dealers are nearby (ish)
Kymco and Peugeot are not, the dealers are too far.

On the Kymcos: do you have a sense for how they deprecate vs the Hondas or the Yamahas? How harder, or not, it is to source parts etc?

[StephenC]

I've bought the last 3 each on a 3yr PCP so can't really comment on the resale price of any of them. When the Kymco finance is done corresponds to when I plan to retire so I expect to use the option to just hand it over to the dealer and walk away.

I would expect the Kymco values to drop faster than they others although they are much rarer: there are currently 15 320cc and 13 125cc registered in the UK, against possibly 1000 Forza 350 (not sure how many of those are actually the ADV though) and getting on for 1500 Xmax 300.

[Data]

I may probably be in the market for a 300ish cc scooter and would like to compare notes / thoughts / recommendations etc

My needs:

• ca. 3,000 miles a year, 95% of which in urban traffic and riding without a passenger. In truth, I do not strictly speaking "need" a 300c, but the insurance for many 125s is more expensive than for more expensive 300cc, and for top models like the Forza or the x-max the price difference between the 125cc and the 300cc isn't great
• I want to be able to install a leg cover, ideally the pro version of the Tucano (the one with a 4-season rain cover + a removable winter lining). This rules out some models. They're ugly but they add a lot to the practicality and convenience - after all, I'm not getting a scooter because it's prettier than an R1...
• I want to install a 47L topbox at the back, for my backpack and helmet, but I'd also want some storage under the seat for things like u-lock, waterproof overtrousers, a spare set of gloves, etc. This rules out things like Vespas.
• being able to absorb potholes and filter in traffic will be way more important than cornering with the knee down.

My background:

• I have ridden all kinds, from 125cc to >1,000cc adventure bikes
• My last scooter was an X-max 300. I loved the engine, the handling, the storage, the consumption (regularly 27kml, ie 77 British mpg, riding only in city traffic). BUT it gave me loads of electrical problems, with some kind of parasitic battery drain that multiple mechanics failed to fix. And I hated the position of the battery; I installed an optimate battery tender cable, but removing the shield to replace the battery was a huge pain.
• I won't get another x-max, but, since it's popular, it's a useful reference for me (e.g. when people say the suspensions of X are better or worse than the x-max)

Potential contenders:

• Honda Forza 350. It seems very similar to the x-max, but with a more easily accessible battery (under the seat, not under the front shield). I am unsure about the mirrors: they probably give better visibility but, being fixed to the fairings, they might hinder filtering. But I noticed there are aftermarket kits to fold the mirrors electrically, at the push of a button.
• Honda ADV 350 : I don't mind the looks (which are not everyone's cup of tea, I get it) but I'm not sure what the advantages vs the Forza would be. Maybe better suspensions? It gives less protection from the rain
• Honda SH : little storage. On older models I hated that the speedo was hard to read (with a full-face helmet, I had to take my eyes off the road), not sure here. I'd get it over the Forza only if it allows better filtering and the suspensions are not worse on potholes (I have read very different opinions).
• Piaggio Beverly 400: It looks smaller than the Forza or X-max but it really isn't. Many reviews suggest its suspensions are more rigid, and the engine is more powerful but with worse mpg, making it a better choice for the motorway than for urban traffic. Less storage under the seat but I could live with it, it's still quite roomy.

Probably ruling out:

• X-max 300: I'm not getting another one, after all the electrical problems I had
• Kymco and Sym: local dealers don't have any stock. Not much cheaper than the Forza; no idea about depreciation and availability of parts.
• Lexmoto: the Pegasus 300 and Aura 300 seems interesting, and competitively priced, but local dealers have no stock and there seem to be no leg covers.
• Vespas. Stolen a lot. Tiny wheels. Too little storage.
• Burgman 400: nice but too expensive

Thoughts? Thanks!

Yes, from your post I think you have a fair handle on the bikes out there. The one thing I would mention though is that in my opinion I would not rule out the Vespa GTS300. They are a very tough bike and are pretty much unbeatable in town. Filtering is a doddle. I wouldn't worry too much about the "small wheels" either. It's superior in ride comfort over the potholes to the SH300 (haven't tried the 350 version yet). You'd expect the Sh to be better with the big wheels but it isn't. This is all down to the much better suspension of the Vespa. It's been the top selling mid range scooter in it's class for many years but not sure it is now in 2023. However, this means there are usually plenty of really good ones about but they do retain their value so cost might be a factor. And yes, they do get stolen because they are so good at rushing through the traffic. This may not be a factor to worry about if you keep it in a garage or locked up around the back of the house. They really are a superb tool though for city riding and I haven't found better. And I have tried many of the alternatives out there. As you can see from my avatar, I have one and I bought that new 7 years ago. Never ever hand any problems with it and no rust either. Totally reliable and cheap and easy to service. If you diy then this is the unbeatable bike for you. Everything from oil and filter changes to adjusting the valves is super easy, with belt and roller changes being equally cheap and simply. Hardly any bodywork to remove either to get to stuff. That's one of the star features that makes it popular, along with everything else of course. Oh, my fuel economy for mixed motoring on E10 works out between 87-92mpg all the time but drops slightly in dedicated town work like they all do. I'm 6'1" with long legs but it's comfortable for me even on long rides. You can of course use an 'apron' and these are readily available. Good luck with your choice.

PS. It's one of the few scooters MCN actually really liked. Some praise indeed coming from a predominantly motorcycle orientated children's paper! Check it out, there's a couple of different tests they have done over the years.

[YetAnotherMuppet]

Thank you! I'll confess I haven't ridden a Vespa in a very long time, so maybe it's time to try one if the suspensions have improved.
Maybe a Vespa would be better than the Forza filtering in traffic? Not that my filtering is ever too aggressive.

One thing I'd need to understand is compatibility with topboxes: the Vespa 32L topbox is cute but too small for me, and it's not clear to me if the 47L ones from Givi and Shad are compatible.

[mottza]

I've bought the last 3 each on a 3yr PCP so can't really comment on the resale price of any of them. When the Kymco finance is done corresponds to when I plan to retire so I expect to use the option to just hand it over to the dealer and walk away.

I would expect the Kymco values to drop faster than they others although they are much rarer: there are currently 15 320cc and 13 125cc registered in the UK, against possibly 1000 Forza 350 (not sure how many of those are actually the ADV though) and getting on for 1500 Xmax 300.

379 ADV350's registered since Q1 2022. Not bad for 7 quarters

[MrGrumpy]

One thing I'd need to understand is compatibility with topboxes: the Vespa 32L topbox is cute but too small for me, and it's not clear to me if the 47L ones from Givi and Shad are compatible.

One of life's mysteries! With Givi products, if your scoot has a rack, you can normally attach a Givi mounting plate to it, to which any Givi box (Monolock or Monokey as appropriate) will fit to.
Definitely agree with Data that the SH's big(ish) wheels definitely don't mean it rides very well! I found it rather firm. Being so small, it was relatively easy to filter, though I rarely get to filter in really tight conditons that you might get in a city. The snag with filtering is often down to the width and height of mirrors - some scoots seem to have mirrors at the exact same height as van mirrors, which is a nuisance. Although the Burgman 650 is huge, it had electrically folding mirrors, which made it much easier to filter!