Outfis or combos

[knight2]

I have been thinking lately of getting a motorbikr/scooter and sidecar, I've always had an interest in them but never owned one but the more I look the more complicated it gets as there are some many different combitnations of bike and sidecar. One of the problems is access to the sidecar as some seem very awkward to get in and out. So I woud be very interested of the opinions of people who have owned them. what sort of bikes and what sort of sidecar they prefered and why.

[capitano]

I’ve ridden many, but owned only two, both in the mid 80s.

A late ‘70s Dnepr ( left hand chair so no driven sidecar wheel) built in Ukraine, then part of the USSR.

An early 80s Jawa 350 with a Velorex sidecar.

The Dnepr made the Jawa look and feel like the cutting edge of technology.

Riding a sidecar outfit is like driving no other vehicle. At 50mph I had to concentrate more than doing 100mph in a 350 proddy race!

The Dnepr was terrifying at above 40mph.

I always liked the looks of the Steib bullet chair, but the Velorex was the best standard chair I rode, mated to a torquey light-middleweight bike like the Jawa or an MZ250. They still do a version through Watsonian, popular for attaching to an Enfield 350, usually the Meteor.

Possibly the best sorted outfit I’ve ridden was a VFR800 much modified with a custom built chassis including the chair on the right. The builder/owner was a French guy called Jean that we met at the Isle of Man TT.

It was still as weird as shit!

[knight2]

Thanks for that. I'm jealous of the fact you had a jawa 350 with a velorex chair always thought they looked the business, still do, in fact there was one for sale recently and I was sorely tempted. It was the model with the tank for the two stroke oil which would be a plus. They could be bought with decent fairings that gave good protection and the chairs always looked well designed with the front hinged for easy access and good storage at the back. The seat looked comfy as well.

[Andym]

Your first job is to get a drive of one. As correctly noted they are like nothing else.

Next, look at insurance. You will need to telephone because the online brokers let you untick the "solo" box but keep sending you paperwork with sidecar: no. Also, will you need an MOT. You'll need a specialist like David Angel because a lot are utter muppets who will want to mess up the alignment. This is why I no longer run outfits, just too much hassle.

My outfits were:

A Ural 650. Biggest POS ever but brilliant fun during the ten minutes between breakdowns.
BMW R1100R -Charnwood Meteor. Would pass anything except a petrol station, 100 mph achieved easily.
Bonneville 790 -Ural. The best.
Moto Guzzi V7 - Watsonian. A poor man's version of the Bonneville, but 15 years newer.
BMW K100 - Home made Kitchen/Cargo body. Designed to cross Australia, would have done it.

Which suits best is a varied as the use. To carry my dog, Fridge and BBQ the kitchen/cargo was best. For a human passenger the Ural is great for access but exposed and heavy. The Meteor (now Watsonian Prescott) was based on a DeHavilland drop tank, so a 400 mph shape but about as comfortable as a canoe.

You match the bike to the chair and use. Frameless BMW's are an expensive nightmare of sub-frames, hence traditional Triumphs/Guzzi's/Harleys are a good choice. Avoid the Cozy/Vespa combos unless you really are only going to take a child out for icecream, badly made and impossible to create a truly robust structure. You are better buying a complete outfit already set up, adding a chair is a job for a professional and can go very wrong without one. These aren't trailers you are building a totally new and different vehicle.

Andy

[knight2]

Andy, thanks for that just the sort of infomation I was looking for. David Angel is that the guy from F2 motorbikes the name rings a bell but not sure why. MOT I don't think will be a problem the old guy (much youngr than me) I go to is a biker into old brit bikes and goes to the TT every year, but you never know till you try. If I buy it will be it wil be one already set up and well used.
As far as scooters go I was thinking of maxi scooters saw a 400 burgman with a nice chair on it once. Did wonder if the cvt was suitable though.
There is a very nice Bonnie and watsonian sidecar for sale on ebay at the moment but it's out of my price range.
Thanks again and I shall keep looking until I see something I fancy,

[Ministerofsillywalks]

Mention of the Jawa 350 combo brings back the memory of the one and only time I have been in a sidecar. It was in 1979 I think. A Jawa 350 with the sidecar the factory fitted. It was an experience like nothing else. Feeling like I was virtually sitting on the road with the sound of the engine right next to my right ear. The Dnepr - I remember seeing the odd one in the 1970s. Both with a chair and solo. They were called Cossacks then. Ural 650, but the rather unkind nickname for them was Urinal.

[capitano]

Your first job is to get a drive of one. As correctly noted they are like nothing else.

Next, look at insurance. You will need to telephone because the online brokers let you untick the "solo" box but keep sending you paperwork with sidecar: no. Also, will you need an MOT. You'll need a specialist like David Angel because a lot are utter muppets who will want to mess up the alignment. This is why I no longer run outfits, just too much hassle.

My outfits were:

A Ural 650. Biggest POS ever but brilliant fun during the ten minutes between breakdowns.
BMW R1100R -Charnwood Meteor. Would pass anything except a petrol station, 100 mph achieved easily.
Bonneville 790 -Ural. The best.
Moto Guzzi V7 - Watsonian. A poor man's version of the Bonneville, but 15 years newer.
BMW K100 - Home made Kitchen/Cargo body. Designed to cross Australia, would have done it.

Which suits best is a varied as the use. To carry my dog, Fridge and BBQ the kitchen/cargo was best. For a human passenger the Ural is great for access but exposed and heavy. The Meteor (now Watsonian Prescott) was based on a DeHavilland drop tank, so a 400 mph shape but about as comfortable as a canoe.

You match the bike to the chair and use. Frameless BMW's are an expensive nightmare of sub-frames, hence traditional Triumphs/Guzzi's/Harleys are a good choice. Avoid the Cozy/Vespa combos unless you really are only going to take a child out for icecream, badly made and impossible to create a truly robust structure. You are better buying a complete outfit already set up, adding a chair is a job for a professional and can go very wrong without one. These aren't trailers you are building a totally new and different vehicle.

Andy

Great advice here from Andy.

I know that Watsonian sidecars are long term Royal Enfield dealers too. They used to offer test rides on outfits they'd made up, but you'd have to check if they still do. At one time this was a 350 Meteor with a GP Manx sidecar, a Himalayan with an International (basically a road going trials sidecar,) and a 650 Interceptor with a Grand Prix (possibly the closest match to the old German Steib sidecars often attached to BMW air head twins.)

My Dnepr probably had a very similar sidecar to Andym's Ural. Passengers had to wrap up as even with the screen it was very exposed. Mine used to fit two guitars in hard cases and a (well wrapped) Vox AC30 2 x 12" combo in there, as I used to ride it to rehearsals and gigs before having to buy a band van because my lazy-ass bandmates would never learn to drive!

Mention of the Jawa 350 combo brings back the memory of the one and only time I have been in a sidecar. It was in 1979 I think. A Jawa 350 with the sidecar the factory fitted. It was an experience like nothing else. Feeling like I was virtually sitting on the road with the sound of the engine right next to my right ear. The Dnepr - I remember seeing the odd one in the 1970s. Both with a chair and solo. They were called Cossacks then. Ural 650, but the rather unkind nickname for them was Urinal.

That would have been a Velorex sidecar. Jawa CZ had a tie up with Velorex and offered the 634-engined Jawa 350 with a choice of a Velorex Sport chair or a Velorex tradesman chair (like a bath tub with a lid) as an off-the-shelf vehicle to buy. Travelling in the chair of mine was a scarier experience than actually riding it, though that had its moments, especially with an empty chair!

That was the one I had, in orange. I also owned a Jawa 350 solo with the 354 CZ engine later, but that's another story.

Cossack was a brand umbrella for selling USSR motorcycles in the UK and Australia mainly. They covered the IZH 2-strokes (including the 125 Minsk, 175 Voshkod, and 350 Jupiter) and the 650 flat twins made by Dnepr in Kiev, Ukraine, and by Ural in Irbit, Russia. Dneprs and Urals were both sold as solos and outfits with either left hand or right hand chairs. The right hand chairs had the option of a driven wheel on the chair.

I had a Dnepr, Andym had a Ural. Both had major similarities but also a whole load of different parts. Both were as agricultural as you'd possibly find on a roadworthy vehicle sold new in the latter half of the 20th century!

[knight2]

Capitano, Thanks. I think Watsonian still do test rides even if it's just around the estate they're on, they used to do open days. They are about 120 miles from here but it would be worth the trip. I had wondered about the passenger comfort in a ural the screen seems to far away and there's no door, alright at ural speeds I suppose but not any faster.
My only experience in a sidecar was a short trip in one of those child/adult things in about 1956 give or take a year or two still remember it though. One of the neighbours gave my mother and me a lift into the local town. There were a lot more around in days of yore

[Ministerofsillywalks]

Capitano - I remember now there was a box version for tradesmen. Or tradespersons as we should say now. The Cossack/Dnepr was a copy of a 1930s BMW. When Germany was divided up after World War 2 the BMW factory happened to be in the Soviet sector. In fact because they were used by the Soviet military some of the sidecars had a mounting for a machine gun!

[knight2]

One of my neighbours had one of those German WW11 outfits complete with machine gun back in the late 60's. I lived in the Channel Islands which were occupied by the Germans so I assume it was one that was left behind. I don't know if the gun worked, probably not, but the gun laws in the islands were a bit lax to say the least.