tmax vs burgman 400 debate

[halfabusa]

How much do you need to spend to swap scoots?
If it's £2740 you won't be saving any money on fuel till 2022....

I'm not counting the fuel savings towards the swap money difference because whatever bike it is, i'll be paying extra to change as the next bike will be newer. I consider fuel savings to be a part of general maintenance/bills rather than purchase price.

75mpg from a Burger 400 seems very optimistic to me, particularly commuting. Since your Tmax consumption is on the heavy side, I'd be very surprised if you got more than 60 from the Burger.

Fair point, i think i was being optimistic to convince myself to be honest There will be a difference though considering the exact same riding style and roads.

You must be riding the tmax hard to get a return of only 48mpg or maybe there is something wrong with it.

I don't think anything's wrong with the bike, it's got to be the rider . As a matter of fact, it even improved after the belt change. It used to be around 45mpg before belt change (also it was winter too).

It differs a lot what type of riding i'm doing. Looking at my fuelly stats, on a long run, my best mpg has been 65.5 which was on 0% city traffic and in a single run (july 2011). Even on a run with 20% city traffic, my mpg was 59.8 (may 2012). My worst was 44.2 (december 2010) and my overall average is 48.7mpg which is not bad considering i'm generally riding like a lunatic and commuting into london jungle.

I've never ridden a 400 Burger, but I get the impression that are more of a touring scoot. The early ones at least didn't handle that well apparently - since the underlying engineering is rather basic, they had that hinged in the middle feeling. Personally, I suspect I would really miss the sharp handling and feel of the Tmax too much to really consider a 400 Burger - even if they are really comfortable, with loads of space and good weather protection. And of course, only 33bhp compared to the 45 or so of the TMax mk2-4.

I don't think i'd miss the sporty feeling on the tmax, although i can't tell until testing a burgman 400. I can only speak from my previous experience with burgman 650 which was a different beast altogether, and i can easily say i prefer it over the tmax, as i value comfort more than sportiness on a scooter. If i wanted the sporty feeling, i'd have bought a sports bike

But as you rightly say the power difference might cause a bit of a regret, so that's why i want to try one out on a long run to see how it accelerates and keeps to high speeds.

Thing is, from time to time i like giving a lesson to those sales reps with their bmws or boy racers, vans, whatever. Burgman 650 always used to feel capable in acceleration without giving me sweat. Tmax is also capable on 90% of the time but not as good as the burgman i feel. on the other hand, burgman 400 would be even less powerful, which might make it a bad choice in the end...

What else though? I surely don't want another tmax as they are too overpriced, burgman 650 i'd love to but my previous one dying due to a design fault scared me off any b650s that are pre 2008, which makes them too expensive as well.

i don't want to be spending more than £3500 and i don't want anything older than 2007-2008.

I toyed with the silverwing idea but i hate it's dashboard. b400's dashboard is another BIG selling point for me.

[Deeping]

You must be riding the tmax hard to get a return of only 48mpg or maybe there is something wrong with it.

I just done a run to the coast and back on my Mk1 tmax and it gave me 58mpg, gentle acceleration, hit all the speed limits, overtook all I came across. About 100 miles, but it is flat round here

You've said it all there...'gentle acceleration' !!! 'Hitting Speed limits'!!! Its easy to get decent fuel figures that way, but thats not the way some of us ride! If I go out with the IAM people we stick to limits mostly, and even I can get high 58s mpg. Normally its low 50s....

yeah point taken If I give mine a hard time it can drop to 46 but I have to be giving it some, but it is more fun like that

[StevenM]

My last fill up gave me 73 mpg. 179 miles to a full tank, (even the burp thing as well). I dont drive fast any more I do a nice 60 on motorways and speed limits too on normal roads, I don't mind either. But great savings, instead of filling up 3x a week on tmax I fill up once. It's great.

[MrGrumpy]

[quote="halfabusa"

I don't think i'd miss the sporty feeling on the tmax, although i can't tell until testing a burgman 400. I can only speak from my previous experience with burgman 650 which was a different beast altogether, and i can easily say i prefer it over the tmax, as i value comfort more than sportiness on a scooter. [/quote]

Ah well....thats interesting. If you liked the big Burger more than the TMax and are looking for comfort, maybe the Burger 400 is for you! There again, I never found the big Burger more comfortable than the TMax anyway. I didn't find the riding position on the Burger especially comfortable, and found the ride quality on bumpy back roads utterly appalling - it was a relief to get back on a Tmax.

[Data]

Halfabusa, I've only had my Burgman 400z abs for 3.5 months but can tell you it's the best bike I've had for ages. It is my first scooter, but as a keen biker (previously owning everything you can think of up to 1400cc and loved them all) I find the new Burgman not just surprising for what it can do, eg. speed, acceleration, how they handle and ride etc, but I find the fuel economy simply almost unbelievable. So much so that I became paranoid that the fuel computer was not working correctly. After numerous pencil and paper checks and crosschecking with the onboard computer, I can say the figues are genuinely just that...simply amazing! I have just finished a week of commuting on mixed roads including some town traffic, and the bike has returned 74mpg bang on. That has included hauling some heavy underseat loads and carrying a small passenger one way on one commute. And considering I've had quite a bit of traffic filtering to do along with a bit more stop start than usual this week, I'm pleased. My 1000cc Vstrom managed just 34mpg under the same conditions on the same run. However, when I now go out for a 'blast' which might take me 70-80 miles on all roads at all the speed limits I can without any effort get anywhere from 77-85mpg. I know, I couldn't believe it either to start with. But this is not unusual I understand from other guys I've met with the same model as me. They do to. And I do use the acceleration. I came home from County Hall doing anywhere between 65-80mph in rush hour traffic for 35 miles (indicated speeds), basically just keeping up with the traffic and she still showed 75mpg on the computer. I've had just over 90mph showing on the clock just the once and it did that with ease. Indeed, coming from big bikes I was afraid the B400 just wouldn't be up to me flogging it along the A12 each day and throwing it around the country roads, but there's no problem with doing any of that.

Today, I was out in some very strong winds and it was gusting heavily too. The bike was unphased and better to ride in those conditions than my Vstrom which also had the full luggage set on it which could make it a handful in windy conditions.

So I bought my Burgman because...I wanted good mpg's: I've got them. Very cheap service costs: I've got them. Plenty of performance, good handling, roadholding and fun into the bargain: I've got it. Massive durability and reliability: I've got it. Good load carrying ability without a top box: I've got it. NOT saying that the Burgman is the best scoot in the world or anything. But it is to me, however I look at it. Rose tints on or off, it still ticks all my boxes.

I've ridden the older T-max Mk2 and that too was good, but I only covered 25 miles on it for fun and can't really make a comparison for you. Except to say the T-max is very expensive to run compared to the Burgman. I did some sums before I bought the Burgman and there is quite a difference in the yearly running costs especially on fuel and servicing. Either way, whatever you buy I'm sure you won't go wrong.

PS. as further recommendation, and another reason I was so keen to buy one in the first instance is a colleague has a 2010 L0 B400 with 35,000 trouble free miles on the clock. He does not have a car licence so depends entirely on his Burgman and is more than happy with it. He has had 4 Burgman 400's to date and not one of them has given any trouble. They are/have been registered to the business as company vehicles.

[halfabusa]

Thank you for the long and useful details Data. I've been reading your posts here and there and like your enthusiasm about the burgman. Reading your experiences with it is encouraging indeed.

Happy to hear that it handles up to 90mph indicated with ease, as in all honesty i never felt the need for any more speed on a scooter, even on my maddest blasts, they just don't offer any more fun above those speeds for some reason. If it was a bigger sports bike it would have been more fun maybe but we're already talking about licence losing speeds so not much use in the real world, especially now that i have a 3 yr old son who i'd like to celebrate many of his birthdays with.

Yes, it would be nice to have a scooter which can teach a few cagers a lessons on the motorway, but those occasions happen only once or twice during the whole ownership. Plus many cars can outrun a maxi (apart from gp800 / srv850 i guess) in the max speed these days.

What is important is how it feels at around 90, which by the sound of it is a positive feeling for the burgman.

All these also apply to the tmax too, but with that, i'd have to settle for an older model with my budget and i would prefer a newer motor next.

I've been following other posts about maxsym 400/600 and the x10 350/500 but those are unknowns yet and would be way too long before a second hand falls in my budget.

Saying that, i recently had another post asking about buying bikes as company bikes as that was something i also considered, instead of waiting for a second hand model to be in my budget, because a 5k bike instantly drops to 4k when registered as business vehicle, rebating the tax back.

However, the complications around personal use and having to pay back some of the vat depending on how much that personal use is all confused me. Although i don't shy away from logging my mpg and other stuff like service details, i doubt i can be patient enough to log all extra personal usage and calculate then pay it back. I already have too many things in my life that i am managing and this would be one too much. If there's an easy explanation though, i would love to hear about it, so if your colleague doesn't mind giving me a few minutes over the phone or email, i'd like to learn about all that. Could you perhaps ask if he can answer some of my questions?

[MjW]

The Burgman 400 looks nice, specially the new ones.

It's looks more comfortable and practical than the tmax, probably is less thirsty too. It seems to be more "mature", if that's the right word.

Although tbh I think the difference is not ground braking and I find the tmax both more beautiful and fun.

I have been in love with the tmax since it came out in 2001, so when the time came to get a bike it was a no brainer.

Hmm. Now that I think of it my view might not be the most objective around here. :p


TA-pa-TA-pa-taPAtalk

[halfabusa]

not looking for objective views, i like listening to people's opinions from both sides of the choice, so that i can pick up on any of the points i may have missed before about these two fantastic bikes.

[Data]

Thank you for the long and useful details Data. I've been reading your posts here and there and like your enthusiasm about the burgman. Reading your experiences with it is encouraging indeed.

However, the complications around personal use and having to pay back some of the vat depending on how much that personal use is all confused me. Although i don't shy away from logging my mpg and other stuff like service details, i doubt i can be patient enough to log all extra personal usage and calculate then pay it back. I already have too many things in my life that i am managing and this would be one too much. If there's an easy explanation though, i would love to hear about it, so if your colleague doesn't mind giving me a few minutes over the phone or email, i'd like to learn about all that. Could you perhaps ask if he can answer some of my questions?

Hi halfabusa, yes I can ask him but he lives in Germany. We only meet at our development team meetings in central 'Urop'. And that's on an irregular basis. I can't even tell you where we meet as I'm not allowed to give away any details that could lead to the car compary who are interested in our engine, being identified. The VAT and personal use laws are a bit different in Germany I believe, but actually our own UK laws are not too onerous. The main thing is to always be honest and you can't to wrong. I no longer have a VAT registered business but my wife who was our accountant when we did have one found it easy to follow the rules regarding this. The Revenue & Customs tax office will supply all the details you need if you haven't already got them. I think there is online stuff too. In the main you need to work out if it is worthwhile having a bike as a company vehicle. If you do lots of miles then it will be, but if it's only a few thousand you intend to do, then it may not be and will be more trouble than it's worth. Don't forget you will have to charge VAT on the bike when you finally dispose of it. Dealers won't necessarily mind as they can claim it back, but private buyers won't want to know as it will make your bike more expensive to buy.

About the Burgman itself, I am as you can see totally enthused by it. There is a little clicky link below to see how big and comfy it is when in use, you may already have seem it. Switching to scooters has totally revitalised my two wheeled experience and I didn't even know it needed revitalising! I'm now very biased too no doubt...but it is a class leader even now, and being as objective as I can, it does go like a good middleweight motorcycle does but giving better weather protection and fuel economy. However, if you are wanting to cruise at speeds near 90mph often, then I would look at maybe a bigger engine. Although it does the 90mph thing quite easily, it really does, there isn't too much else left in reserve and a 400 engine spending a lot of time at that speed is probably not what it was designed for. When on a long trip I tend to ride it at differing speeds around the national speed limits. It's most economical speed range is 55-60mph which gives easily mid 80's in mpg's. The nearer to 70-75mph indicated (the perfect long distance speed) you cruise the fuel useage dips to nearer 74-76mpg, still very good and my engine is still young, and still not as loose as it will be in another month. However, bear in mind what we as individuals get mpg wise from our bikes is going to some extent be variable as we all use them on different roads in different traffic conditions, different terrain, and we all accelerate and use the throttle differently. But one thing is for sure, riding scooters is one of the best things in life and very liberating. After a hard day I like nothing more than to mount the Burgman and woosh off down the road for a refreshingly uplifting ride. Yeah...I know. Iv'e probably made half of you lot sick as parrots now!

Clicky Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSfSTIkAm1U Enjoy!

[MrGrumpy]

33bhp is OK normally, but when you get on M-ways, you will notice the effects of headwinds rather more than a Tmax, especially up hills. 33bhp is probably just about enough to maintain 70 in all conceivable circumstances ie into a gale and up a steep hill!